29 Replies Latest reply: Jan 13, 2014 5:04 PM by rainmaker6 RSS

    Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained

    ghamorra

      Overview:

       

      The most important stat in Ghosts is RPM (Rounds Per Minute) and the reason is that you can't compete against ARs with a slow gun, it's just not going to end up well for you unless you can get a OHK which is unlikely. Adding burst mode removes the one null stat, recoil, because burst pushes the gun to it's max firing rate and the recoil goes through the roof. If you're going to use a semi-auto then stick with the single shot mode. Another major downside that it's apparent when looking at the guns is it's the range at which this gun loses it's max damage, 20 units.

       

      Most ARs average 20 units like MRs which is a complete oversight because the advantage these weapons should have is range. Sure the Min damage is higher than ARs and the Min Start is further, but the damage drop offs on every MR (exception SVU) is freaking insane. If you don't have the accuracy and the trigger finger you're not going to win outside of the guns maximum damage range. Furthermore, adding a suppressor will exponentially hurt MRs. ARs don't have the range or the damage of MRs so adding a suppressor to the MR effects the gun way more than you might think. Its shortens the range of the weapon dropping the damage much sooner, increasing the Slope (loss of damage over distance) and giving the impression that the guns damage is far worse.

       

      Advantages of MRs is that the ADS time is the same as ARs, .3 seconds or 300 milliseconds. This means that you can win duals up-close if you have the trigger finger and the accuracy to beat a slower less accurate opponent. Another thing to remember is that the less powerful the MRs are the less people will use them. Keeping the popularity of the weapon down increases the novelty of being successful with the weapon which is really what I got out of using the Mk14 in MW3 and the FAL in Black Ops and Black Ops II.

       

       

      WeaponMax DamageMax  EndMinMin StartSlopeRPMRecoil
      MR-28652034451.24600Best

       

       

      After much consideration I have come to the conclusion that the MR-28 is the best MR in the game for a mobile player. The most important stat in the game is RPM (Rounds Per Minute) and the reason is that you can't compete against ARs with a slow gun, it's just not going to end up well for you and the MR-28 has the highest rate of fire with 55 extra rounds per minute than the next fastest, IA-2. While the recoil is pretty good something you have to keep in mind is that it's a semi-auto so by the time you shoot of each round the gun will have settled back to center a bit allowing you to stay close to your target. This is due to it's default forgrip attachment. This makes handling a lot easier and I'd say it might be the best handling semi-auto in CoD history

       

      WeaponMax DamageMax  EndMinMin StartSlopeRPMRecoil
      Mk14703249462.3480Worst

       

      This gun was amazing in MW3, hands down better than the ACR or MP7. The damage and RoF was perfectly balanced and it required skill to use but was a unbeatable if you had what it takes. Ghosts seems to have done everything to keep this weapon from returning to glory and the Mk14 is my least favorite MR. The RoF just can't compete and it's damage drop off help reinforce the decision to allow the gun to fire so slowly. I hope there can be a tweak to allow this weapon a chance because right now I wouldn't even consider it in the top 15 most useful weapons. I'm not saying it's not effective, it's minimum damage and minimum range start is great allowing you to take out the unsuspecting, but don't even think about putting a suppressor on it. The recoil is just awful though. The gun bounces too much that even with it's terrible RoF you can't really get two quick shots off on target at range. This gun just doesn't perform anywhere close to where you might think. I'd say a sniper would be a better alternative. It's recoil is too much, RoF too low, and it's good damage still leaves it at a two shot kill which you can get with any of other faster firing, low recoil MRs in this class.

       

      WeaponMax DamageMax  EndMinMin StartSlopeRPMRecoil
      IA-2652649391.2545Medium

       

      Probably the second best MR in the game. It's ability to compete at long range is built on a balance between damage and it's RoF. The only downside is that it doesn't have any outstanding abilities, it's kind of average across the board. Even without the burst fire attachment a quick trigger finger can lead to problems at longer rangers. Another fault of this weapon is it's short range for minimum damage. Starting well before any other MR, the IA-2 is equal in shots to kill as ARs once past 39 units. However, it's up-close damage combined makes it easy to wield at shorter ranges. Plan on using this gun for a more mobile playstyle

       

      WeaponMax DamageMax  EndMinMin StartSlopeRPMRecoil
      SVU68195250.45400Bad

       

      I'm not really sure what the purpose of this gun is. Since it's damage drop off starts close you really can't say it's a powerful weapon, especially since it's RoF is so low. The damage drop off being as early as it is means that once you pass 25 the damage is about the same until you reach it's minimum damage start, but again, the RPMs are really low. The SVU is only good as a highly mobile sniper but if that's what you're looking for I don't see how the VKS couldn't be just as effective if not more considering they're already fairly mobile has equal RPMs and 40% more damage and range with a suppressor as a default attachment. So yeah, I'd go with the VKS.

        • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
          ghamorra

          I will post snipers probably tomorrow

          • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
            Sailorbob

            Thanks for posting. Interesting to consider, but I personally found the IA2 more accurate than the MR-28 because it seemed to have less recoil. However, if your damage and range ratings are accurate, I will have to reconsider the MR -28. I'm kind of disappointed how poorly you find that the MRs compare to ARs at longer range.

              • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                phxs72

                I too prefer the IA-2 over the MR-28 but that probably has more to do with how I use it.  I like pulling it out for mid-range engagements and that's where it shines.  That and I've got the refire timing down pretty good.  So what recoil it has doesn't affect my shot.  Also, with it's up close damage being so high you can easily hipfire spam it and drop people with two or three shots depending on your accuracy.

                  • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                    ghamorra

                    phxs72 wrote:

                     

                    That and I've got the refire timing down pretty good.  So what recoil it has doesn't affect my shot. 

                    I make reference somewhere to this. Since it's a semi-auto the time it takes to press the button is usually enough to re-center the gun somewhat making it easier to control. However, if you fire super fast the recoil will catch up to you.

                • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                  Mechman

                  Unless the AR's end up being patched at some point, the Marksman Rifle category is useless.

                   

                  Driftor did a video showing that if you put select fire (single fire) on Assault Rifles then they become 2 shot kills.  Since Marksman Rifles usually take two shots there is not any advantage to using them.  With the Assault Rifles you get more ammo and less recoil and they still kill with two hits from the groin up (if using the single fire attachment).

                    • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                      rainmaker6

                      Mechman wrote:

                       

                      Unless the AR's end up being patched at some point, the Marksman Rifle category is useless.

                       

                      Driftor did a video showing that if you put select fire (single fire) on Assault Rifles then they become 2 shot kills.  Since Marksman Rifles usually take two shots there is not any advantage to using them.  With the Assault Rifles you get more ammo and less recoil and they still kill with two hits from the groin up (if using the single fire attachment).

                      I said the exact same thing about the MR class last week. A complete fail. Of the 75000 weapon kills I got in MW3 over 60000 were with the MK14. It was an awesome gun in MW3 and they have absolutely destroyed the usefulness of the class in Ghost. Using it in Ghost with the larger maps was one of the things I was looking forward to. I was hoping I could crack a 2.0 K/D ratio on these maps. 480 ROF for the MK14 what a joke. And you can hold down the trigger of an AR and have better recoil. I've played for the past 10 days using the MR-28 because I liked using the semi-autos and when you move around a lot the MR-28 ROF gives you a chance the other MR don't when you run into someone close range. But after a week of frustration I decided it's just not worth the disadvantage. Why make a new class and make it suck so bad. You rarely saw anybody use the MK-14 in MW3 it will be a the proverbial unicorn in Ghost.

                       

                      The semi auto attachment on the AR makes them deadly at close range because of the low recoil and high ROF (and buffed damage) but after trying it for a while I have come to believe the drop in damage is very steep. So don't use it on Stonehaven or Seige or any map where you expect to have long range engagements. I can't provide empirical evidence but that's my impression after trying them out.

                    • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                      eleven1181

                      Ive tryed them all apart from the svu I like the mr-28 the most the mk14 has the worst recoil IMO I loved that gun in mw3 but right now it's needs a buff it's usless

                        • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                          phxs72

                          I've been playing around with the MK14 with iron sights and it's a challenge but it's fun.  The recoil is easily manageable from what I can tell but of course staying on target long enough to land two bullets without getting yourself killed is where it gets a little challenging.  I tried the burst attachment this morning and that was just a waste of points in my opinion.  The accuracy is horrible with the burst attachment.  More often than not I found myself only landing 1 of the 3 bullets with each burst.  Sure if you are close enough to your target it can be an instakill attachment but when you are that close your opponent often can out maneuver you.

                            • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                              rainmaker6

                              phxs72 wrote:

                               

                              I've been playing around with the MK14 with iron sights and it's a challenge but it's fun.  The recoil is easily manageable from what I can tell but of course staying on target long enough to land two bullets without getting yourself killed is where it gets a little challenging.

                              I believe the extremenly low ROF (480) is giving you this false impression on the low recoil. You basically can't fire the gun fast enough to see the real recoil like the other guns. The 480 is 70 below what it was in MW3 without rapid fire and 200 with rapid fire. You simply can't fire the gun fast enough to compare it with the recoil of the others. If you jacked the ROF up to 680 this thing would dance all over the screen.

                                • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                  phxs72

                                  This is likely true.  The firerate cap on the MK14 is pretty low.  I can easily over sample it.  Oddly enough the IA-2 fires a little faster and that recoil is still quite manageable but it's mobility is so low that it doesn't really work for me with iron sights.  I just can't adjust my aim fast enough unless I'm staying way back.

                                    • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                      ghamorra

                                      The MR28 is the best weapon recoil wise. The Mk14 is just sad all around. I can't really find any positive to it.

                                        • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                          phxs72

                                          I rather do enjoy the MR-28 for a more aggressive playstyle but the MK-14 for me anyway is only good at longer ranges.  I think that the firerate is just a little too slow for it to be consistent up close.  I do find, however, that for some odd reason if you put a Thermal on it, it is pretty steady at long ranges or at least recenters quickly.  The MR-28 with a thermal is aweful but it's great with a red dot sight.

                                            • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                              rainmaker6

                                              phxs72 wrote:

                                               

                                              the MK-14 for me anyway is only good at longer ranges.  I think that the firerate is just a little too slow for it to be consistent up close. 

                                              Said this many time myself. To win up close against any decent player using anything but a sniper rifle requires you to kill with no more than 2 shots. With the slow ROF any decent player will kill you before you can fire a third. And you have no chance to survive close encounters with even 2 opponents unless they are completely hopeless.

                                  • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained

                                    If they make the recoil as low as the FAL in BLOPS2 was, MRs will be useful, even with low fire rate. But the recoil really kills it for people who trigger fast. At this point, if you have good aim, a sniper rifle works way better.

                                    • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                      zvers

                                      I love using all the marksman rifles personally. Three round burst, iron sights, thermal, etc.. If you use them wisely then they are very effective.

                                      • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                        adw1983

                                        MR28:

                                        2 hit kills up to 32 meters

                                        0.10 seconds to kill / 0.20 with one miss / 0.30 with two misses (50%) / 0.40 with three

                                         

                                        Mk14:

                                        2 hit kills up to 50 meters

                                        0.125 seconds to kill / 0.25 with one miss / 0.375 with two misses (50%) / 0.50 with three

                                         

                                        IA-2

                                        2 hit kills up to 38 meters

                                        0.11 seconds to kill / 0.22 with one miss / 0.33 with two misses (50%) / 0.44 with three

                                         

                                        SVU:

                                        Always two hit kills

                                        0.15 seconds to kill / 0.30 with one miss / 0.45 with two misses (50%) / 0.60 with three

                                          • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                            ghamorra

                                            adw1983 wrote:

                                             

                                            MR28:

                                            2 hit kills up to 32 meters

                                            0.10 seconds to kill / 0.20 with one miss / 0.30 with two misses (50%) / 0.40 with three

                                             

                                            Mk14:

                                            2 hit kills up to 50 meters

                                            0.125 seconds to kill / 0.25 with one miss / 0.375 with two misses (50%) / 0.50 with three

                                             

                                            IA-2

                                            2 hit kills up to 38 meters

                                            0.11 seconds to kill / 0.22 with one miss / 0.33 with two misses (50%) / 0.44 with three

                                             

                                            SVU:

                                            Always two hit kills

                                            0.15 seconds to kill / 0.30 with one miss / 0.45 with two misses (50%) / 0.60 with three

                                            This might be true on paper but not in game. The very first match I played I got 5 hitmarkers with the MR28 with Muzzle Break and FMJ as my attachments. There's no excuse for that. Also your TTK assumes that the weapon is fired at it's max RoF consistently, an impossible feat.

                                          • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                            darkrangeresp

                                            I like this topic and the information that it presents.  However, I would like to comment on a few things.  First of all, the semi auto attachment on the ARs isn't as good as it's presented here. It doesn't increase the damage to a 2 shot kill. It simply adds between a 1.2 and 1.6 damage multiplier to the torso area of the body.  This means you have to get 2 shots to the head or torso to get a 2 shot kill while the marksman rifles don't have that limitation.  The semiauto attachment also lowers the rate of fire on the ARs between 20 and 30% depending on the gun. It's a trade off if you like the ARs bigger mags at the cost of an attachment slot.

                                             

                                            Also, I would like to comment on the original poster's comments on the SVU.  It's actually a pretty solid gun and I happen to find it very useful.  The reason for the statistics being what they are in the game is the developers wanted the weapon to keep the same feel it had in BO2.  The weapon has the same ROF, shots to kill, default scope zoom and very similar recoil to the sniper varient in the last COD game.  This means anybody familiar with it from the last game can feel right at home with it in this one.  They lowered the damage from 70 consitent to 68 - 52. This doesn't change the weapons killing ability other than it loses its one hit kill to the head outside of 27 meters. However, the weapon picks up considerably better handling than it had in BO2.  It ADS in .3 seconds as opposed to .4, quick draw works with it and it moves at the same speed as an AR in this game. It also gets a larger clip than in the last game. It is also the only MR that kills in 2 hits at all ranges.

                                             

                                            Another comment made by the original poster is that it's usable as a mobile sniping weapon, but he thinks the VKS is the better choice for that role.  However, if you actually compare the SVU to the VKS there is enough offered to justify running the SVU over the VKS.  Please note I am saying the VKS is a bad weapon, I am simply saying that both weapons have their strengths and weaknesses. Both guns have the same rate of fire, but that is where the similarities end. The VKS has a large one hit kill to the waist up, a built in silencer and a consistent base damage of 98 to 90.  It is a traditional semi auto sniper rifle and works very well in that role.  The SVU's advantages come in the handling and flexibility department.  The VKS has 3 optics available along with, extended clips and armor piercing rounds.  The SVU has 6 optics, 3 barrel attachments, the same extended clips and armor piecing but it also has the 3 round burst mode available if you want it.  The SVU also ADS .1 seconds faster, has a larger clip, and moves faster with stalker than the VKS. 

                                             

                                            The other large difference is recoil. Both weapons have moderate recoil.  However, the SVU is more predictable, it tends upwards and to the right with a reasonable center speed of 1100. The VKS is omnidirectional and has a center speed of 700. This means the sniper rifle has about double the recoil of the SVU and is harder to compensate for. It also has higher idle sway while scoped in and worse hipfire. Still it's hard to fault a sniper for electing the VKS's one hit kill from the waist up. Both weapons are excellent and my favorite in their respective gun classes. It really comes down to your preference and what you are trying to do with the gun. The VKS has high damage, a large OHK area, and a built in silencer.  The SVU has faster and more consitent handling but, it is generally a 2 shot kill. 

                                              • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                eleven1181

                                                The honey badger is a two shot kill with single fire put on and 3 shot kill across the map way better than any MR and the gun has zero recoil so now there's really no need to use MR

                                                  • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                    darkrangeresp

                                                    The honey badger has almost as much recoils as the SVU, It has a center speed of 1200 vs the SVU at 1100.  But the honey badger kicks randomly in every direction and with semi auto you have to hit the chest to get a 2 hit kill.  Plus, the 2 hit kill range on the Semi auto is about 40 meters and the SVU kills in 2 hits out to infinite distance. 

                                                      • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                        ghamorra

                                                        darkrangeresp wrote:

                                                         

                                                        The honey badger has almost as much recoils as the SVU, It has a center speed of 1200 vs the SVU at 1100.  But the honey badger kicks randomly in every direction and with semi auto you have to hit the chest to get a 2 hit kill.  Plus, the 2 hit kill range on the Semi auto is about 40 meters and the SVU kills in 2 hits out to infinite distance.

                                                        The recoil is contradicting. It's hard to the left and right which seems like a lot on paper but in application all it does is cancel itself out. It's mostly for show just like the recoil in Black Ops II. It's all camera movement but no real skill is needed to control the weapon. The gun always returns to where it started and because of that you're seeing all these kills at range with a guns that only has 20 damage beyond 40 odd units. I won't even go into the Thermal attachment on the Honey Badger, no recoil, increased range. Not cool.

                                                  • Re: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                    jewz

                                                    Shocking. Guns that have been assault rifles in previous games, shoot the same round as assault rifles, perform like semi auto assault rifles. GASP never saw that coming

                                                    • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                      RunAndGun1

                                                      Thanks, ghamorra. I really appreciate it when players take the time and effort to share their valuable experience to help their fellow players. This helps me a lot. Thank you!!

                                                      • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained

                                                        I'll let you guys in on a secret:

                                                         

                                                        Honey Badger + Semi-Auto = better than any MR. Sure, it's a bit weaker, but fire rate in terms of semi-auto, it's WAY faster, and accuracy and recoil on RDS is amazingly better.

                                                         

                                                        Semi-auto seems to really make a gun stronger, and it works wonders on honey badger. Until they make recoil better on the MRs, I won't even bother with em.

                                                        • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                          zvers

                                                          I've actually replaced my sniper class with an MR now. I run the EBR with thermal and muzzle break. Keeps it deadly at range. It has some recoil but far less than the actual snipers in game and the RoF is higher. Good post.

                                                          • Re: Ghamorra's book of tactics: Marksmen Rifles Explained
                                                            W_E_A_P_0_N_11_

                                                            I got a KEM with the SVU ;P