38 Replies Latest reply on Apr 4, 2013 1:32 AM by thebiindsniper RSS

    Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

      Some of you have seen the video of my discussion, but "some" people removed my post becuase of a video that was simply discussing Call of Duty.


      Anyway, I have typed the near exact words of my video.  Should you desire to watch the original video, go to /BronySavior via YouTube.


           To start off with the main topic, I'm going to start off by asking this simple question.  Does the reward system in Call of Duty actually reward the player who deserves it?  The answer to that question, is mostly no.


           From Call of Duty 4 all the way to Black Ops 1, the reward system has never actually been about offering the spoils to those who exact direct merit towards the objectives of the match.  Instead, the reward system is all about who can rack up a good killstreak, even if it means that the objectives were not pursued, or in fact avoided altogether. 


           So why do people avoid objectives in the first place?  The main reason being the killstreak counter resets to zero upon a single death, which ultimately destroys the motivation to jump out for a flag or bomb site in order to help the team win.  Another reason is due to how players don't wish for their kill to death spread to reach negative levels, so they can appear skillful to the eyes of the lobby and on their YouTube channel. 


           Now, there are some objective players out there who disregard their Kill Death spread, in addition to sacrificing any rewards they could have earned.  Rather than being selfish and hiding behind cover, it's always the objective player who snatches victory from the jaws of defeat, and this happens more often than you realize.


           So let's role play here.  Let's say I interview a random person who doesn't play video games that often.  I ask that person, “Mr. So and So, let's say two teams are playing Capture the Flag.  I explain the rules to him, and he understands that the goal to winning is capturing the enemy flag, while keeping the friendly flag safe. Let's say there's one player who captured the enemy flag 3 times, returned it 5 times, and has grabbed the enemy flag a total of 8 times.  Should that player be rewarded?  Mr. So and So answers is yes.  Why?  Because that player went above and beyond through adversity to help his team win. 


           Now let's say there's another player who had 0 captures, 0 returns, and didn't even bother to grab the enemy flag even while it was right in front of him or her.  Instead, that player decided to kill as much as possible without dying.  Should this player be rewarded?  Mr. So and So says not as much as the player who pursued the objectives.  Some merit can be given for keep the enemy team at bay, but workhorse of your friendly team is the one who captured all of those flags.


           Then I reply, “well mr. so and so.  Even though that's what should happen, it doesn't.  You see, Call of Duty really just rewards the player for their killstreak.  Meaning, even with several tweaks in the later installments, the majority of earned rewards comes from simply avoiding death.  So if I were to replay that scenario, the objective player who helped the team win will most likely not receive any spoils due to their constant deaths.  And the player avoided objectives will receive every bit of the spoils, both in-game rewards and external praise via YouTube. 


            If that's the case, how does it make sense?  That's like a football player who dances and poses on the field.  He didn't help his team to victory, but he sure did look cool, right?


      Taken from A Christmas Carol, here's how rewards should be offered.


      When the small boy is asked to buy the prized Turkey, Scrooge adds:

      I am in earnest. Go and buy it, and tell them to bring it here, that I may give them the direction where to take it. Come back with the man, and I'll give you a shilling. Come back with him in less than five minutes and I'll give you half-a-crown.'


           This is an example of how a reward system should be like.  Rewarding the objective play, and offering even more should that objective play be skillful.  If that objective play is not presented, then there's little to no reward.


            A video game title that follows this example is Halo 4.  The reward points don't reset, small portions are given for simple kills, and the larger portion is offered to objective pursuits.


            So why can't call of duty follow in the same path?  Sure,  Modern Warfare 3 didn't properly execute the support strike package's functionality.  Black Ops 2 had the right idea for offering more points towards objectives, but the fatal flaw was how the points reset upon a single death.  The point is, both games had the right idea on rewarding the objective players, but couldn't effectively establish a flawless system.


            The Call of Duty reward system that I believe should exist cannot be fully explained here, but I do have a forum topic on the Call of Duty website.  The link to that page is in the description below.


            So what do you think?   Do you believe the Call of Duty developers need to enact a better reward system for those who deserve it?  Leave a comment below, and have a nice day.



        • Test #1
          Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

          This is so true its not even funny, Playing Dom the other day and 1st place in the team went to a guy with 35 kills and 0 Caps 0 Defends, 3rd place went to a player with 20 kills 6 caps and 3 defends, this should not happen.

          Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 7:14 AM
          • Test #1
            Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

            I think the reward system in BO2 is a step in the right direction... but there is still plenty of room for improvement.


            In past iterations, as a support player.. I was punished for helping my team. Taking the time to take out Air Support? Usually gets you killed, and only got points for it, which meant nothing in the overall outcome of the match. Destroying enemy equipment? No impact on the match.


            The scorestreak system, while flawed in some ways, is a big step forward. Because I do a lot to help my team, I am usually at the top of the scoreboard rather than the selfish, kill mongering player who did nothing but camp for kills.


            Still needs continued thought and improvement, but I think if they continue with this vein of thinking the scoring system will continue to improve.


            Great topic, interesting post. For the future may want to read this, as I am sure your post was removed because it didn't follow these guidelines.


            YouTube Etiquette- http://community.callofduty.com/message/413354220#413354220

            Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 7:25 AM
            • Test #1
              Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

              Ironically (or not), in TDM - an exercise in killing and nothing but - killstreaks are no problem at all.

              My anti-aircraft class is practically redundant in this title, beside, of couse, an odd stealt chopper,

              or a warthog and that reaper-like aircraft, once in every blue moon. Go figure.

              Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 7:44 AM
              • Test #1
                Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                I know allot of people will disagree with me on this one but I think they should combine the scorestreak system with support, meaning you constantly are working towards your scorestreaks if done correctly IE getting score for the correct actions in gamemodes balancing ammount of score needed for each steak ect.

                Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 7:53 AM
                  • Test #1
                    Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                    I would really like the support system to return but they would have to do it right. No UAV in Assault. I would put Sentry and Guardian in support but that's it as far as potentially lethal. I think it would work quite well. Support was a good idea just hindered by some poor choices.

                    Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 8:00 AM
                      • Test #1
                        Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                        deucedouglas wrote:


                        I would really like the support system to return but they would have to do it right. No UAV in Assault.


                        Heh.  You're the only other person besides myself I've seen wonder why the UAV is in the Assault system.  Always wondered why this rarely gets mentioned because some people go into overdrive moaning that Support has a few lethal streaks in it.  Even a party of 6 chaining EMPs has a counter in Specialist.

                        Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 9:34 AM
                          • Test #1
                            Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                            I always found it hilarious when people would use "UAV spam" as a reason why support was stupid or unfair or whatever but would run UAV exclusively in their assault packages.


                            Anyways, if I were to make Black Ops 2 with Support and Assault, I think it would look like this:


                            Support - UAV, C-UAV, Care Package (Only Support), Guardian, Sentry Gun, Advanced UAV, EMP


                            Assault - RC-XD, Hunter Killer, Care Package (Support+Assault), Hellstorm, Lightning Strike, Death Machine, War Machine, Dragonfire, AGR, Stealth Chopper, VSAT, Escort Drone, Warthog, Lodestar, VTOL, K9, Swarm


                            I might have thrown in some others like Ammo Crates or Airdrop Traps as well. If there was ever going to be a UAV in the assault, I think it would be way better if it was just a personal UAV rather than team as well.

                            Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 11:34 AM
                        • Test #1
                          Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                          I like it.


                          I think the cycling of streaks is a bit too much in this game.


                          What would you think about having your idea of doing it like support, where you are always working towards it... but doubling the requirement for the second time around?


                          Example(just using random point values)- UAV costs 400 points, Chopper costs 800 points, Orbital VSAT costs 1200. You work towards these, deaths don't count against you and your streak keeps counting up.


                          You get through all 3 of your streaks... the second time around its 2x the value. So a UAV is 800, Chopper is 1600, VSAT is 2400 (Perhaps they can even last twice as long to make it worthwhile?)


                          Just a thought.

                          Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 8:06 AM
                        • Test #1
                          Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                          I think the reward system for BO2 was established with the most consideration for these pro type players and competitive play.  They made every single scorestreak harder to get and more difficult to get rid of.  These accommodations don't benefit the average player. 


                          Which is also why I think there is no support selection.  A pro player who can average a long killstreak wouldn't need it.


                          If you imagine yourself as a game developer and you speak to a focus group to develop your product, and they tell you, you only need this one version.  Of course you're going to agree because it's less work on your part.  And then you rationalize it in your head that this is the better way. 


                          But doing what MW3 did with developing three different killstreak packages was incredibly difficult and time consuming.

                          Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 10:25 AM
                          • Test #1
                            Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                            thebiindsniper wrote:


                            Black Ops 2 had the right idea for offering more points towards objectives, but the fatal flaw was how the points reset upon a single death. 


                            I agree with this sentence completely.  I liked the MW3 support class streak setup much better than anything in BLOPS2, and I agree it had its flaws, but it was great for objectives.   I always tried to cap objectives in MW3.  Something needs to be implemented in COD for better rewards for capturing the objective.


                            Having said that, in BLOPS2 I do not capture objectives because the reward is too small and I don't care about winning/losing. My K/D also sucks at a 0.6.   Instead, my enjoyment from BLOPS2 comes from leveling up my weapons, getting camos, and completing challenge cards.  

                            Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 9:52 AM
                            • Test #1
                              Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                              Will say it again. Said in your first thread also.

                              I agree with you. They should make a system which is a mix of BO2 and the MW3 support package.

                              How don't know yet.

                              And scorestreaks should be more support streaks than streaks that can kill.

                              They may kill like a sentry gun but vtols and warthogs should be deleted.

                              The rewards should help you to get to the goal of the game not get the goal

                              Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 11:04 AM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                maybe they should introduce a system where you have kill streaks / support streaks / objective streaks and "bonus streaks"


                                The kill streaks would work as normal


                                support streaks would work as MW3


                                Objective streaks can only be obtained by completing objectives, i.e. grabbing flags / capturing / defending hardpoint or HQ


                                Bonus streaks would be awarded for things like triple, quad kills, multi-kill nades



                                so, for example in BO2. You get enough score for a UAV, then get a quad kill feed. You would get your UAV + the bonus streak for the quad kill.

                                So on and so forth for grabbing flags. They could be a "bonus" on top of what you have already set for score / support streaks.

                                Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 11:13 AM
                                • Test #1
                                  Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                  The reward system should be based off winning and losing.  If you win you get 1 point, if you lose you get 0 points.  But if you quit out you get -1 or more points.


                                  3 things that should be done for future COD games with this system: Remove level restrictions from Guns and Perks.  Leaderboard only track points in each gamemode and points/total games.  Add a Trueskill Ranking system that matches you up with people close to you.


                                  Here is an example:http://halo.bungie.net/Stats/Halo3/RankHistory.aspx?player=Vrruumm


                                  From here you can make the first 5 levels 1 point.  The next 5 levels 2 points.  The next 5 levels 3 points.  Etc.  Every prestige could be around 500 points and there could be a Trueskill requirement to prestige.  After prestiging you get new camos and other cosmetic things(such as new dots).

                                  Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 9:31 PM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                    Why was the MW3 support package so flawed? It wasn't only based on kills, you would get a "kill" towards it when you took objectives or shot down certain air support. It probably needed to reward a lot more for objectives, but I think it was a good idea.


                                    I do agree with this post. However I have myself set up with care package, VSAT, EMP and I find myself able to get that in a lot of objective modes when I have trouble in TDM b/c I actively defend objectives and get extra points for it. I'll take points when the opportunity presents itself but for me it's mostly about locking things down for my team. I would play differently if I didn't care about a death resetting my KS.


                                    What about a system that awards points based on objectives, kills, and other battlefield actions (destroying enemy equipment and air support) and just subtracts points for deaths. A player with more deaths than kills would have trouble getting rewards unless they're pursuing objectives actively.


                                    There still needs to be some sort of deterrent to dying but I agree that the idea of losing all progress based on a single death seems silly, especially in games where the objective has nothing to do with your k/d.

                                    Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 1:39 PM
                                    • Test #1
                                      Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                      I'd rather have killwhores on my team who push the enemy back so I can get on an objective, than people who do nothing but base dive, die, and give the enemy killstreaks to use against us. I play with a full team of killwhores and we win almost every match, no matter the gametype.

                                      Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 2:01 PM
                                      • Test #1
                                        Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                        I never want to see a streak system that doesn't break upon death again. People should not be awarded streaks for dying, especially with streaks that kill. Overall I want killstreaks to be de-emphasized, but I wouldn't mind specific actions earning a streak. Capture a flag in CTF, ok you get a scorestreak reward, capture a HQ, reward. I doubt it happens, so I will settle for a reduction of streaks in general.

                                        Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 2:11 PM
                                        • Test #1
                                          Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                          thebiindsniper wrote:

                                            If that's the case, how does it make sense?  That's like a football player who dances and poses on the field.  He didn't help his team to victory, but he sure did look cool, right?


                                          That's kind of a silly analogy because it isn't accurate at all, and even contradicts a sentence previously.

                                          Offensive linemen generally don't score touchdowns but I'd be willing to bet that any decent quarterback wants them. If you get even one kill throughout the entirety of the game, you're still closer to linemen than cheerleaders. Especially in CTF. You just put someone that could have stopped your flag carrier from capping on a respawn timer. If anything you might have been the exact reason you just won that game.


                                          Support streaks weren't an awful idea but they were implemented horribly. CUAV, EMP and lethal streaks should never be acquired from continuously dying over and over. Not to mention I was able to just use a single UAV and spam it mindlessly 10-20 times a game.


                                          If people want the system from Halo... Maybe they should go play Halo?

                                          Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 2:16 PM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                            first of all i completely agree with everything you said, ive played call of duty since COD 2 and to be honest i could sit here and write so much on this subject but im not going to i will cherry pick a few thoughts on the subject first thing is someone mentioned true skill rank like halo had, this is a brilliant idea it means you would always get a lobby with people your own skill and actually have close fun games instead of the trash you always seem to get lumbered with going 0-22 and you lose the game, secondly objective game modes really really irritate me because of the reasons you said about people not caring about the objectives, i would be a **** about it and say domination for example give 200-250 points for a capture and give basic kills something like 25 points then people wouldnt care so much about the kills they would play for objectives and this can be said of all the objective game modes, third, i bet raising to score total on TDM would help, a lot of people play objective because they just dont have the time in TDM to get the high scorestreaks so take TDM from 75 points to, lets say for example, 125/150 points, and the last point i would make on this is, although i find myself doing it, i am always concerned with KD etc i would rather they took out KD from the lobby leaderboards and put it into the barracks-leaderboards section like they used to do OR i just thought even better, reward people for the win with a bonus that people actually care about not the pathetic match bonus you currently get.

                                            Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 2:33 PM
                                              • Test #1
                                                Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                The true skill system sounds great, but it's actually not as good as you think it is.  Skill filtering results in bad connections and less variety in regards to how the outcome of the match will turn out.  If skill based matches are required, that's what League Play is for.


                                                In regards to the reward system in objective games, the previously stated idea regarding how I think the reward system should be like is located here 



                                                The best way to fix the reward system is to get rid of the points resetting upon death.  If points didn't reset, there would be more incentive to pursue rather than avoid.  And no, I am not saying we should bring back the Support Strike Package either. 

                                                ~RUGGED SAVIOR

                                                Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 3:58 PM
                                              • Test #1
                                                Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                I 've enjoyed this thread, thanks... I don't like the idea though.


                                                The point streak system in this game is in my opinion pretty close to good. Some things can be tweeked. Lets look at Dom for an example.  I agree in objective modes kills should yield less points. In Dom maybe 50 points. Capture points, attacker kills, capture kills, I think all give an appropriate score. Score streaks should not yield points for your next reward though, that in my opinion was Treyarch's mistake with their streaks.


                                                I would rather see a game where killstreaks or point-streaks are less of an impact on a game. That is why they should not continue after a death. You have in your other thread described the "battlepoints" system from the game "Homefront". If you played that game you know the last 2 minutes of a game were just scorestreak spamming. That game didn't do well at all.

                                                Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 6:21 PM
                                                • Test #1
                                                  Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                  how about have two active streak sets.  You have your standard set that is based only on kills.  then you have another set based purely on the obj and it never resets.  This one would be severly higher so you would have to get like 500 for a UAV 1000 for a hell storm and 2000 for chopper.  how does something like this sound?  It will please both crowds

                                                  Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 6:42 PM
                                                  • Test #1
                                                    Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                    I'm going to throw an idea out there that I just randomly pulled right out of my arse after reading the OP Saviour ...


                                                    How about both?


                                                    Follow me on this.


                                                    Objective Score Streak System ...

                                                    -  Half the normal points (or maybe less) for kills

                                                    -  Twice the normal points (or maybe more) for capping objectives

                                                    -  Twice the normal points for taking out enemy equipment/scorestreaks


                                                    Slayer Score Streak System ...

                                                    - Normal points for kills

                                                    - No points for taking out enemy equipment/scorestreaks

                                                    - Half the points for capping objectives

                                                    - NO scorestreaks (not even sentries, UAV points, etc) count toward more scorestreaks


                                                    The scorestreak reward choices would be the same for either set up. No "Support" or "Assualt" differences.


                                                    This would, of course, hurt the Objective player when it comes to scoring kills, but the claim is that those players are not really interested in the kills anyway. There is also the counterargument that this would further discourage from capping objectives. Not really, though. It simply encourages them to do one or the other. These guys want to run up their scorestreaks for chopper gunners, etc ... well, if they do, that's fine ... but those scorestreaks will not boost them into another scorestreak. They claim they are simply trying to kill opposing flag cappers, right? Ok. then that's what they get to do, but they don't really get any personal benefit from doing so.


                                                    Might also separate KDR into three categories. Overall KDR. Score/Kill streak KDR (without player inflicted kills). And Player KDR (KDR via gun/knife/equipment kills).



                                                    edit - Or here is another idea, too. Keep what we have now but with a huge caveat. Kill streaks up to 7 or 8 kills work like normal. Kill streaks of 8 or 9 or more kills cannot call in the high end streaks until at least one flag is capped ... or until five flag defends are scored, as well. And death resets the process.

                                                    Last Edited: Apr 3, 2013 9:26 PM
                                                      • Test #1
                                                        Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                        In the early stages of my mind, I had this idea regarding how to equally reward slayers and objective players.  But the main problem I had was the community and how 80% of them are slayers. 


                                                        If the slayer scorestreak system were to only rewarded half the points for objectives, that just makes avoiding the objectives even worse.  This would also ruin the objective scorestreak idea, because what points could they possibly earn if they're the only ones trying to cap a flag?


                                                        In addition, there can also be inbalanaces.  It would suck if the ONLY objective player on the team was getting outmatched by an entire team using the objective scorestreak system.


                                                        ~RUGGED SAVIOR

                                                        Last Edited: Apr 4, 2013 1:32 AM
                                                      • Test #1
                                                        Re: Is the reward system in Call of Duty flawed?  (Re-post)

                                                        Out of curiosity did you play Homefront by chance?  Reason being is that they had rewards that didn't reset upon death and it was quite well approved of, but, like with all things, nothing's perfect.

                                                        Last Edited: Apr 4, 2013 1:03 AM