21 Replies Latest reply on Feb 11, 2013 4:46 AM by thetizzleguy RSS

    Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

      Last night, I figured I would help my daughter ( who is 8 ) gold one of her guns. I usually only play with her in local matches against the bots, never tried playing together online.


      The first thing I noticed is I was completely ahead of the game play, every match I was the only one in the lobby with double or triple the score of everyone else, high score streams every match, it was "easy" to play, I was almost tempted to create a youtube channel for the amazing game plays.


      Under my gamertag, playing produces results where I feel I am instakilled, now you see him, now your dead, the game play is on drugs, super speed, it varies match to match if I can get a kill or not get a kill, camping, rushing or other wise, the same thing many complain about. ( Lag Comp, a second behind, can not kill to save our own life, etc )


      If the game was moved from Skill based match making in core to ping based, why the huge difference? Her account playing, the game is in slow motion, like I am playing the bots.




      I am still under her and I join her under my gamertag and play some split screen, she is the host of the matches, same thing, everyone is slowed down, every kill is easy and I am dominating the match.




      I call a friend who has multiple gamer tags, ask him to take one of his accounts that does not play black ops and party up with me, he is the host.


      Again we dominated every single match ( I am playing with him as my gamer tag, not my daughters ) ,literally every match is easy kills, ahead of the game play in every match.


      My conclusion is, match making is not ping based at all, it is 100% skill based, ping is not even taken in to consideration at all. What seems to be done with ping, is lag comp tries to balance the pings in the match after the lobby has been selected based on skill.


      Her gamer tag experience *should be no different then my experience, the connectivity *should be the same as if it was my gamer tag.


      Does this account the wide range of lag, lag comp, drastically different experiences within the match making many experience, complain about? I will tell you now, If my friend hosts a match with his entry level gamertag and you end up in my lobby, you will not pull a positive score period. You do not have a chance if he searches for a match and I am partied up with him.


      The confusion comes, if as I said above it seems to be 100% skill based match making, how do you end up in the lobby where the entry level gamertag is the host? ( it does happen, for me playing with my gamer tag partied up with this low level gamer tag, I can dominate the match ).


      Any ideas? Anyone set me straight? Very odd.


      In my mind, regardless of the gamertag I use to play the game or party up with, the game should provide a relative similar experience in connectivity and match making. It is up to me as a player to learn how to play, not the game deciding for me if i can play it or not by changing the speed, connectivity in the game.

          • Test #1
            Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

            That was true for past Call of dutys not BO2.

            Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 3:14 PM
            • Test #1
              Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

              Thank you for the article, it makes sense, kind of.  Even though I take a less skilled gamer tag in to a match ( as with me a more skilled player ) indeed, I get this, however, there is still the issue of being "ahead" of the play and "behind" the play.



              On my daughters account, I am considerably ahead of the "response" time of every single player. I have time to re-load, change guns, light a smoke, go make dinner, come back and still get the kill, it takes 3 seconds or more for the other team to even realize I am in front of them. ( I really cannot make dinner in 3 seconds  ).


              Even though this article "explains" it, it seems to have left out some key details exactly what they do to each player to try and balance it.




              - The guns ads slower


              - Movement is slower


              - The time when I see you and you see me is skewed, it is as if they control "when" you see another player and calculate it based on "average" reaction time.


              Alot more is being controlled other then you are a 60% successful player so we will match you with other 60% successful players.  What seems to be happening is they "ensure" you are a 60% player by controling player movement, response time etc.



              lets say you test my response times on the controller to varied events with in a test scenerio, my average time is 220ms, now ever test after that, regardless if I respond in 200ms, 190ms, 240ms, the game adjusts my response time IN GAME to 220ms regardless if I am faster or slower.


              When i play as her acccount, even though I respond physically faster then the other players, the in game action has been slowed down to "her response time", movement, gun movement, etc.


              Only reason I can comphensate for it, I can play the game, whereis she cannot.


              My point is they are controlling alot more then just "matching skill with skill".

              Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 3:46 PM
                • Test #1
                  Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                  Seems like you are giving them a bit too much credit.

                  Remember if you are playing a lower skill level... they are bound to have slower reaction time. Perhaps they haven't or don't know how to adjust their sensitivity to lower levels. Perhaps they have connection issues which impact their performance.


                  Just seems like you are over-analyzing a bit.

                  Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 3:50 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                      Maybe, however my physical reaction time does not equal the in game reaction. I.E I ADS and my triggers are already pressed in and the action of ADS is delayed on the screen, is this maybe what we are calling "lag comp" when in fact it is variables in the game to balance player to player interaction?


                      My physical movements on the controller overall playing as her account do not equal my reaction on screen, within the game. I move faster then she does, yet it moves within the game as she would move, as if the game as calculated her average response time and uses it for all her interaction within a match.


                      I will keep playing as her and see if I can "speed" her up, then I will give her back the controller, the game will expect her to respond in 220ms, yet, she responds at 320ms so then she should never get a single kill.


                      We have seen the Camera's do not line up threads as well ( out of sync ), is it that the camera does not line up, or that the response time between the test players is drastically different on how the game calculated, thus it appears the camera's are not synced when in fact it is the response time of the in game player actions have been controlled based on there average to balance it out.


                      Since the test is being done on a player with a reaction in game time of 220ms and a player with a in game reaction time of 180ms, that 40ms delay would make it appear the camera of each player model is out of sync, when it fact, it is there pre-determined reaction time, based on there average game play reactions overall.

                      Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 4:01 PM
                • Test #1
                  Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                  Yeah the Skillbased match making is pretty strong in this game and there are are number of ways to exploit it so you can get super noob lobbies :/

                      Wish they would go back to the old way as match making in this game sucks ! I want a game against people with the best ping not their K:D !! IMO the number 1 reason this game suffered from so much lag ! If I want competitive games I'll play league play ! As for Vonderhaar trying to stamp out pub stomping !! Lol he failed miserably ! And we got the worst lag I've seen in a title :/

                  Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 3:55 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                      Read my post above, if you really want to balance a game between players, it seems the best way to do this is take there average reaction times of player moments and balance them based on that and then call it Skilled Match Making, when infact it is not matching you based on your "actual" skill, it is matching you based on your average reaction time and adjusting your in-game experience equally.


                      As you improve a little here or there, they will adjust your profile accordly.


                      Everyone Win's.  I hope someone with some technical ability like the guys who did Camera and Out of Sync tests, takes a different look based on it is solely calculated by a players average reactions.


                      If you think about it, this would cover all the illusion of Lag Comp is the reason for this or that, when in fact it has nothing to do with it, only appears to be lag comp. ( maybe there is some issues, but this is not it )


                      Players who stay with in there reaction time in most siutations have no issue with the game, those who respond quicker or slower based on certain situations + lag + quality of the match, would experience exactly what everyone complains about since this release. 


                      Soley because the dominant variable to determine game play is controlled and based on "response time/reaction time of each player model"

                      Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 4:11 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                      You really think Treyarch knows how to do all that?

                      I think you are givin them to much credit.

                      I don't think they could put together a decent match making system, if West and Zampella were standing next to them telling the what buttons to push.

                      People asked Van about match making.

                      He said everyone has a 3 bar.

                      They have no clue what they are doing.

                      Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 4:27 PM
                        • Test #1
                          Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                          I think this covers that though, I think this is the new approach, building a game that calculates the match making based on a players average reaction time in game movements is absolutely intelligent.


                          The majority of the players all have one thing in common, same as MW3, that the first week of release the game played absolutely incredible. Yes it did, because there was no data available to profile the game play based on each players reaction times. You were playing a game based on your skill in various situations, your average was not implementated yet.


                          After a week of game play, the forums exploded in lag comp, and a ton of other issues of shooting first, corner shots, then came the camera's are out of sync and more and more theories and now this one.


                          This one, makes sense, and it overrides and explains the issues everyone experiences, it covers the season of MW3 and why at the end the variables used to determine the game play were dropped which appeared "they have fixed it" when infact they simpled removed it from being part of the reason for matching you up ( does not matter the season was over....right? )


                          I am not saying it's the truth, it certainly looks like what has been done. If we are stuck in the way things were done before, we would not even consider this as being an issue, however I am a guy that has looked why my response times do not equal my in game responses, I thought it was my tv, internet, router, etc the whole game we have all played, the moment I tried to play as my daughter with only a few ranks up and to see my reaction time is drastically different  on screen compared to what I did physically indicates this is it.


                          - My tv did not change


                          - My ISP did not change


                          - Did not change cables


                          - Did not do anything other then switch to my daughters gamer tag to play under her


                          All of a sudden my reactions do not equal on screen as to what i do physically, why? Because the game is expecting her to reaction at 320ms, and I am reacting at 220ms, If i play long enough underneath her account, the same experience will return for me, as her profile will then average her out at 220ms instead of 320ms over how many matches and in game time they decide is enough data to process the reduction.

                          Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 4:42 PM
                        • Test #1
                          Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                          Just a thought- I was listening to my friend go through his classes and such- he has a 0.45 k/d and I stomp in his lobbies and I'm not great.


                          In all of his setups- never once did he have the stock equiped.  He can't control it.  I assume many people including myself last year couldn't use it properly and just ditched it.


                          He might have had quick draw but that is irrelivant since if you react slower you'll never tell on your end.


                          First perks were NEVER lightweight.  It was hardline or flack jacket.


                          Theres MIGHT explin the "slowdown" you are expirencing along with their not as fast reaction time, as perhaps they don't use any perks that increase their speed because they just dont gain an advantage from using them.



                          The "easy lobby syndrom" is very apparent when joining with lower skilled players, but this might explain the "slowdown"

                          Just a thought

                          Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 4:54 PM
                            • Test #1
                              Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                              That is an interesting take for sure, however as my gamer tag, I can play with no attachments or perks and it is the same game experience, you are right, I just played however as her classes, never thought much of it, however I will go remove all her perks and attachments and see if it is the same effect.


                              I do not care to play with perks and attachments after diamonding SMG's and ShotGuns I noticed in my experience at the time, there was no huge advantage to any of the perks or attachments, I can play equally the same with or without them ( interesting, with this new assumption I have it makes sense )


                              I will give it a go anyways, I am not saying I am "right" but I tell you, it sure seems this is what has been done.


                              It is something to keep in mind, everything was LAG or this or that was OP right until black ops 1.


                              Someone mentioned earlier they may not be smart enough, I beg to differ, I do not think all these issues in the game are because of lack of intelligence or ability to produce a decent game, I think the changes and what has been done as I am suggesting was done because "new" youthful gamers will not notice, only those who base there play on there reaction times, personal skill & ability will and equally have an issue with it. 


                              Look around, those people seem to be the complainers.

                              Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 5:07 PM
                            • Test #1
                              Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                              So much fail in this thread.



                              In halo 2 we used to call this "piggy backing" or "rank boosting".


                              Not to be confused with modern day boosting.


                              What you would so is invite a player or friend who is a much lower rank (or have a friend create a new account) then you would search together and you would broaden the search parameters since there was such a huge difference between the level of players in the lobby.. So for example I would be a level 35 ( which was high in halo 2) and new account would be level 0.


                              The game would ind a mean average and probably put players of in between skill to play against your party. So they would be around level 15-17.


                              That still happens in call of duty. But people don't realize it or know about it.. Now you do.. Go have fun and own noobs.. Bye

                              Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 6:32 PM
                                • Test #1
                                  Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                  Sometimes you just want to play with real life friends for FUN! ..and if one of them is no good and contantly goes like 3-25 in my lobby and quits after 2 games well, that's no fun for either of us now is it?


                                  It's the yang to me joining my clan mates most of the time who are sooo much better then I am and I'm statistically the lowest scroer in the lobby.  And I do this almost nightly.


                                  At least me joining his laggies (lol, I mistyped it's kinda funny)  he does "ok" and I do great, and we both have fun.  A few games a month (that's all he really plays, he's still level 32 no presteige ) couldn't possibly be considered boosting.


                                  If they didn't have skill based matchmaking like we do it would be no biggie - sometimes I'd still join him when it wont let him join my lobby

                                  Last Edited: Feb 11, 2013 4:49 AM
                                • Test #1
                                  Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                  I like the creativity, but there are several problems I see with this scenario.


                                  1.) Even if they had implemented a way to average experiences...we don't have the server code. So you can't prove it without someone hacking their rank servers and pulling the code. We only get the Peer and Client side.


                                  2.) The best way to lose sales would be to implement such a system. Now, I have a feeling some of this compensating code is doing things to cause a similar average. However, I do not know if it was intended as a handicap system. It could simply be the matchmaking + terrible lag comp code that causes all the problems and nothing more.


                                  Even if someone did find such code...Activision would have some serious problems. People would be so F***ing pissed off you could expect plummeting community numbers...plummeting DLC numbers and more.


                                  People absolutely do NOT LIKE HANDICAPS. If I choose to put a handicap on myself that is one thing. Putting a handicap on me without my knowledge on the other hand would be BS. It is quite the worst system imaginable. I would immediately stop playing any game that did this without my say so.




                                  As a result, I'm not sure they necessarily would risk going that far. I can see them screwing with the skillbased matchmaking and lag comp to such a degree to cause a natural byproduct. Then doing what is currently happening and denying it, supplies such a system "accidentally" but intentionally.


                                  So...if someone ever provides code that shows a handicap...please release such information. In fact I beg you...because I would take no greater pleasure than to see some rigged designers reaping the whirlwind and sending a vivid and massive image to all companies that would so much as even SURMISE such a system...that players will absolutely not accept it, and any attempt at doing so will result in sales armageddon.


                                  However, until I see such code...I think we are getting a bit into conspiracy theory territory here.






                                  - I think its probably just the combination of terrible matchmaking, and a terrible lag compensation system, combined with a few glitches and basic game flaws that are creating this issue. 

                                  Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 10:51 PM
                                    • Test #1
                                      Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                      I agree, it is an absolute theory, an idea, a possability, things add up equally to be going down this path. Not one of us knows what they have done to the connection, match making, lag comp to create the experience many of us face.


                                      Regardless if it is a theory or "conspiracy" we only know if we take a look, someone with the skill and the talent to measure it from this or that perspective.


                                      We need to remember that thinking outside the box and looking for the root cause of why this or that happens is how we get answers and why we live in such an advanced society to experience, to look at not just the angles we are told to look at, or keep looking at the same angles for something different, it is to look at all possible angles and probablity based on our own findings combined with others.


                                      I am not trying to lower the value of the game, they indeed produced an excellent game in the sense of ideas, graphics ( visually ) etc, Grade A, performance is another matter, and for many of us, this performance issue is controlled by there system instead of our own abilities.


                                      Thank you for the very wise and intelligent response, I as you, anticipate even if my "conspiracy theory" is incorrect, maybe going down this path will bring us to an answer, instead of guessing this or that.


                                      ~ Cheers

                                      Last Edited: Feb 10, 2013 11:56 PM
                                    • Test #1
                                      Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                      I can see where your going with this and I don't agree. I have a 270 SPM and a 1.35 K/D overall. Most of the players I am teamed up with/against CONSTANTLY have a higher SPM and K/D then I do. The SPM (when I check the leaderboards) ranges from 150-400 and the K/D can range from .8  to a 2+ ...To broad of a range to think they are matching you against similar skilled players. (those stats are from my experience in core domination)


                                      I have had laggy games and perfect games in the same lobby with the same players and basically the same teams with the same host. I also have a second account that I have played this game on and I get the same results and the second account stats are a bit lower. So I don't think that skill has everything to do with it.


                                      I commend and thank you on taking the time to doing some research and post your thoughts, but my experience with the game leads me to think differently.

                                      Last Edited: Feb 11, 2013 12:56 AM
                                      • Test #1
                                        Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                        I'm sorry, is it just me, or does anyone else find the fact that he is letting his 8 year old daughter play this game horrible!!  The language that she is being exposed to and the very offensive emblems that are in pretty much every match...  That is something an 8 year old should not be exposed too....  I'm sorry to be direct Illusiongames, but that is not the best parenting.  An 8 year old is just not mentally ready for all of the stuff she is going to be exposed to on this game.  That is why this game is rated Mature....  FYI yes I am a parent too...



                                        Last Edited: Feb 11, 2013 4:37 AM
                                        • Test #1
                                          Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                          Personally, i dont care in the slightest who i get matched with

                                          Last Edited: Feb 11, 2013 4:42 AM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: Skill  VS MatchMaking - A Question

                                            You let your 8 year old daughter play this game? jesus... you should be ashamed of yourself...

                                            Last Edited: Feb 11, 2013 4:46 AM