46 Replies Latest reply on Jan 30, 2013 9:08 AM by theroc23 RSS

    Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

      OK, here's a scenario I've seen many times...


      I get in a lobby, get chosen to be host, game starts and my team does really well. Next game, I'm still host and the same players are on the other team, but now I can't get a hitmarker to save my life.


      Sound familiar?


      Is it crazy to think that the game might purposely handicap players at random? Not a lag handicap, but a momentum change. Is this their new formula for getting noobs to keep playing?


      Here's another scenario...


      Games starts and you go on a rampage, then half way through the game, you start getting instant deaths. I've even had games where I started 0-5, only to come back and finish 30-10. And it really felt like I wasn't even trying at all. Last week, I was playing FFA with a friend and got host the whole time. Every game I broke even, but then got one game, still host and same players, and I just owned. Couldn't be stopped.


      So what do you think? Does this game have random momentum?


      Last scenario... Start playing. First hour I can't get a single good game. Keep playing, it seems to get better. And after putting in several hours, I become unstoppable. Is this my skill going up? Then why when I come back the next day do I start back at hour one? Is the game rewarding players based on how long they've been connected or am I just seeing different skill levels at all hours of the day? I work swing and grave shifts, so I play at many different hours of the day. The only time that seems consistant is that weeknights after 2am pacific, everyone becomes a camper, most likely because most players on at that hour don't have a job.

        • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

          While I really hope this is untrue , I can definitely see what you mean and would probably agree with you

          • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

            There was a conspiracy going around back in the MW2 days which was dubbed 'sniperfrog' and was similar to what you are describing now. Personally I think nothing of it when this happens to me every game can't be good or maybe 3arc and IW really do code some sort of handicap

            • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

              I've never given much thought to this until this game. I noticed what you describe when you have 2nd prestige and lower on a team, with k/ds lower that 1.0. I've seen what seemed like they have enormous amounts of flinch. Who knows they possibly have. It wouldn't be impossible for them to do it.

              • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                you sounds like the kids in the FIFA forums saying about a "handicap"......sometimes you just play bad, it all depends on the map, who you are up against, and your own connection

                • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                  i have been saying this since the MW2 days

                  • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                    It sure does feel that way.


                    I hate the "stealth migration" where you are doing great for like 3 min then all of a sudden you get owned and can't get hit markers.

                    • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                      Good post

                      So what do you think? Does this game have random momentum?

                      Yes, there is something about this game that seems to conspire in favor of one team. Its hard to explain and we all want to say its "lag compensation" and it very well might be.


                      But when do our errors account? How many times can we simply say it was our fault, or the enemy team just were better? Or we did everything right and won?


                      I know what you mean, I personally feel this game at times conspires for me and then against me! Weird to write that, but it seems like it.

                        • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                          Yes, the play can often result in a blowout. But I see it both ways, not an "always happening to me" scenario.


                          I see it happen most when two things occur:


                          1) The right Mix of Play-styles - When you get the right mix of play-styles all on one side that really "gels". With a good mix of running-and-gunning, a couple of sharp shootin' campers, and some sneaky guys who are always ending up behind enemy lines throwing the other team off balance... it feels pretty awesome when this happens to you, as your "Team" really dominate the match.


                          Conversely, you get the wrong mix, like having 8 campers who all decided to break in that new sniper rifle at the same time... and you are pretty much doomed right out of the chute.


                          2) Having a good/bad Game - It happens to almost everyone... you go 30/2, or some other really good score, and later in the night you go 6/20 ... saying to yourself.. WTF...


                          Get a bunch of people all having a "WTF" match on the same team, and ... well, you know how that baby-violin story ends.


                          Get elements of both #1 and #2 to converge, and thats when the winning team can feel unstoppable and half the losing team leaves the match.


                          Yes, there are laggy matches. Yes, there are times when there is a host migration (although nothing like how it was in the first few weeks). But in general lately -- with the exception of games where you get a host of ultra crappy PM glitchers who can't play for crap... or even worse a couple of multi-player logins where there is a toddler shooting at basketballs and butterflies on account (2) -- game-play pain feels pretty balanced.


                          And to the original poster.. no, it's not just you. It takes me a little while to get warmed up also. It's called immersion. With the limited peripheral vision and inability to quickly glance behind you as you could in RL, you are forced to bend your perspective into the little window of your TV. Some can do it quick, some can never do it... but for me, it takes a bunch of matches to get into the zone where I can then bring the "A" game.

                        • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                          I have actually noticed a swing in a round midway, where as, it starts and I can't miss, pistol shots across maps landing head shots to mid round and my guns start shooting marshmellows, close up in the back shots result in me dying when he/she turns around. Initally I chocked this up to lag but there a definate pattern. I have also seen matches where its clear everyone on my team including myself can't go positive but everyone on the opposite team does. While I'm sure under the perfect conditions this might be possible it seems more likely something is amiss.

                          • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                            Good post!


                            First of all the mechanism here is completely different and unpredictable than MW3.


                            But I am nearly sure that it is related to the host migration. My rule of tumb: If you have 2 good games in a row, leave the lobby immediately. The game code says you cannot own the lobby, host migration takes place and the other team get favoured.


                            During the game it is also sometimes the players. Once they get killed easily so they start also camping and playing carefully.

                              • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                I would agree about the host change, but all the situations I gave were strictly when I was host. I can always tell by checking the player list before chosing a class. It's hard to tell what's going on if you're not the host because that other player that is host could be doing anything.


                                I've gotten into the habbit of checking to see if I'm host in every match (sorry to say, but so I can dashboard the laggy ones). Anyways, knowing when I am host, I start to notice these huge momentum changes even though connection doesn't really change much at all.


                                I get host a lot because my connection is so clear. Cable line, ethernet, ports forwarded, and texture installed to disk.

                              • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                Actually this game is:


                                CORE vs. HARDCORE


                                Sh.t game doesn't require skill, experience etc. If you're at the side who has the advantage you kill like in hardcore. At the other side they need to shoot a few seconds first and they need to fire double so much bullets to kill you.

                                • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                  Its not a conspiracy its just the constantly changing connection issues.


                                  It all has to do with connection via matchmaking.  I have experienced the same issues as you since BO1. 


                                  When I host, the match might start out fine but as the match progresses the lag steadily gets worse to the point it is completely unplayable.  Usually this is due to people leaving and others joining during the match.


                                  I think the main issues I have is when I'm in a lobby with split screeners, clans or just a couple of guys who are teamed up together.  My opinion is that these players other than the party leader might be from many different regions thus giving a wide range of pings.  The net affect makes for a very laggy match with some people that I'm unable to kill with the normal amount of bullets needed.


                                  With BO2 when the game first came out every match I got into was all four bars and ran super smooth, aim assist worked great and the only issue I had was the waiting to balance teams message when there was 12 people in the lobby.  Since the first patch things have gotten worse but I still get decent lobbies every once in a while. 


                                  I also believe more people have messed with their connections and perhaps downloading stuff while they play which probably creates some of the lag spikes I experience at times.

                                  • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                    Man i just came into the foruns to post this. Last night i was talkin to some buddies and they related the same stuff:  starting a game in a killing spree, like 10-1, easily done, and then all of a sudden you are being outgunned in every 1x1 fight, just like YOU was winning at the beginning of the match. And the opposite is true, starting being owned by far, like 1-10, and finishing 30-11. Same players, same teams, no host migration, just this weird thing happening.

                                    IMHO its a kind of lag compensation, OR like crossfire-roadster say above, connection issues during the gameplay every time.


                                    I just know i dont like it. I dont like winning `cause my lag is good, and dont like losing because of it. I like fair gamplay and thats it.


                                    Sorry about my english, i try hard =)

                                    • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                      I made a thread in the MW3 forum about a conspiracy theory I had. I was on a 20 killstreak and was working on a MOAB. We pretty much had the game lock-up at this point because the enemy was so bad. Then out of no where a guy turns the corner and starts shooting and kills me before I could even comprehend what was happening.



                                      This was so bizarre that I had to go back and watch it in slow motion. This guy spawned around the corner and started shooting at the exact frame I showed up on the screen and ever bullet fired landed. This might have very well been a coincidence but I was determined to pay closer attention



                                      After making the Conspiracy Theory thread a lot of people came out and said that their biggest BS deaths came when they were on their best killstreaks. We came to the conclusion that if you're on a higher killstreak in order to keep some decent balance the game will shift your Frames per Second so you see less and the enemy sees more

                                      • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                        sometimes I think it does, but it does not make sense at all.


                                        A couple of days ago I was playing with a guy and he went 108/9. The next game, he did so bad he rage quitted.


                                        I looked up his stats out of curiosity and they were terrible (just saying in context)


                                        There is no consistency in this game.

                                        • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                          i view MP COD as a sport!


                                          I can't count how many times i would start a fresh game of say, TDM, and my team was getting stomped in the opening 30 seconds. (like 15-2 or something) the enemy team already spams up like 2 UAVs and hunter killers on their way to higher streaks....


                                          in a real sporting event...this would be called "Momentum"


                                          then....out of shear furiousity, my teammates and myself all begin to infuse different strategies on our approach towards the enemy lines.  And wouldn't you know it, because of the "momentum" the opposing team had at the start, they felt like they could keep the fire burning with a continued advance.  Little did they know they were now facing near-to-different opponents.  We would come back with the win sometimes by a small margin, but most of the time it would be a blowout.


                                          to me, games like this are way more rewarding than a constant battering of the enemy the entire duration of a match!  Although, that's still fun too! lol

                                            • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                              I agree with the momentum thing, but what I was saying, and I believe the thread creator was saying too, its in the same game you kill everyone and later cant even see the enemy coming, losing EVERY gunfight.

                                              I think in a normal game, and sometimes it happens, the momentum happen when you are more lazy, or more distracted, or more focused, but it allows a less variable change of k/d, like starting 6-1, then die a lot and kill less and become a 10-10 game, and finally finish some like 20-20, or 24-18, or any other score more plausible.

                                              But score easily for 5 min then cant kill anyone the other 5 min is very very strange, thats what im talking about.

                                              Obviously can be just a connection thing too, but im starting to think theres some lag compensation issue involved.

                                            • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                              Last night, I started a game as host for Demolition on Hijacked. I went 15-0 fricking VSAT and everything. All but one guy on the other team quit out and my team was on fire. Game loaded 5 more players on enemy team and I finished 27-23, and LOST. WTF? I just couldn't kill any of the new guys at all. It was like their time and mine were not in sync. They constantly got the advantage on me.


                                              How can any one start 15-0 and end 27-23?


                                              I truly believe either that ,due to the new guys being out of sync or game intervention, that we were slated to lose that match due to crushing the opposition so much at the beginning of the match. I went on to play these guys for a few more rounds, and they were no where near as "Godly" as they had been on that first match.

                                              • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                Sometimes you do feel like someone flips a switch during the match, for better or for worse. The losing team seems to come back out of nowhere, even if no one rage quits so a change in the lag cannot always be the case. Naturally there can be some fluctuation in the pings people have to the host (or the host's connection has some interference or additional traffic) which might be the explanation, who nows since sniperfrog is not proven. But it does feel like somekind of a system giving or taking away the momentum exists.


                                                Other thing i've noticed, is the lack of flinch when shot and strong amount of aim assist low level players seem to have, even without toughness. All of these things wouldn't be suprising since they want to keep the noobs and casual players happy and as returning customers when the next title drops.

                                                  • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                    I absolutely agree with the lack of flinch with low level players. I'm glad someone else noticed it, was starting to question my sanity.  If I find myself in a game with low level players (and sometimes I do because, even though I'm a higher level my stats are terrible lol) they are very hard to kill, almost consistently. Like my AN is shooting big old fluffy tampons at them.


                                                    Also, would agree with the momentum change. Me and the boyfriend used to play online quite a bit...although not as much anymore, lag and freezing issues mostly have taken away a lot of the fun. Anyway, he's pretty good, I'm not, but he can actually tell the point when the game momentum changes, in either direction. It's like the game tries to give the losing team a bit of a chance. He's also noticed that the more he plays, the worse he gets...and we're not talking about 8 hour stretchs where fatigue will play a roll. He'll have a few really good games, then he'll go brutally bad one game after another. And the kicker is that we're playing split screen, same connection and the "lag comp" (meaning getting instantly killed, bullets not registering, getting killed by people not on your screen, etc, etc) will affect him way more than me or just affect him and not me at all.


                                                    We've wondered for a while if it's just plain "lag/lag com", or if there's a bit more to it. Mostly it does seem sometimes like there may be something kicking around the coding to penalize better players to keep the more casual players from getting discouraged, so they'll keep spending their money on the DLC, future games, etc.

                                                  • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                    id like to say I know exactly what your talking about, Myself I am preciously holding onto my 1.0 and its been a struggle, I looked into all kind of scenarios from cable quality to propagation delay which is something beyond our control and the only response time I found I needed to work on is my own. I go back watch my vids as you mention same map same players in the first round I am 28-7 the second I am 9 and 18, my tactics did not change so what happened? I call it being out of sync, meaning instead of them running by me and me flanking them its reversed why who knows, the best way to win a gun fight is not get into one catching people by surprise is best. I have only been playing for a year barely past rookie, there is no telling how many score streaks I have awarded in MW3 to the enemy LOL, but if someone with an accuracy of 17-20% goes against someone at 25 - 35 % there is not much of a battle, I have had games where I hit and killed just about every thing I shot at and other games i empty a magazine never got a hiy marker. initally it looks like i hit them but after watching the kill cam my tracers were to this left while straffing, milli-seconds is the difference between life and death at times i get flash banged , run into my own grenade, shot in the back, flanked, gang banged and so on. one thing for sure if you can see them they can see you, My nephew runs around like a rabid crack head needing a fix, what surprises me it makes no difference the map, game mode, weapon, I have sat behind him watching and he shoots and kills people I never see, i've watch him go 58 and 8 on my unit thinking wow how is that possible its crazy, I used to think people like him was cheating  but I have seen first hand there are people out there that are that good.

                                                    • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                      I started to think this in MW3 - especially while playing All or Nothing FFA in the community playlist.


                                                      I would be playing amazing and just about to get the last few kills to win and suddenly the tide would change and everyone else would start killing me with ease and closing in on me. Even though I was doing playing no different, it felt like something was holding me back.


                                                      Another scenario would be me doing terrible and so far behind leader that it would be a lost cause but then magically going on a kill frenzy and turning things around.

                                                      • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                        I'd say that momentum is the correct word for it.  When you've got the momentum you're king of the world and when you don't it's painfully obvious.  I don't think that it's a game mechanic but rather a side effect of the game.  I've played long enough to know that many gunfights are won or lost due to timing and positioning.  If I can get to the correct spot at the correct time, more than likely I'll take out whomever pops the corner that I'm looking at but if I miss time it by even a second the advantage will go to my opponent.  I play solo a lot (mostly to minimize my lag problems) which means that I join a whole lot of games late.  Generally if I end up on a team that is doing well then I will do well also because more than likely they have pinned the enemy down.  But if I join a team that is getting slaughtered it's very difficult to change the momentum simply because for every guy that you kill another one will take you out from behind.  Often it takes a few minutes of kill/die and repeat before you've been able to push the enemy back far enough to mount a comeback.  So for those games where you start out winning and then find yourself rocking a large deathstreak, what has happened is that your team has lost it's momentum.  Somewhere along the line somebody got to his position a little too late and now the enemy has taken the advantage (momentum) away from you.

                                                        • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                          When you play HQ you will most likely feel like this game is an conspiracy lol.


                                                          you could in the proces of capturing a HQ when you suddenly get shot by an opponent and watch the replay to see he just respawned next to HQ and then turn to rage when you see you respawn on the other side of the map lol.


                                                          small maps like hijacked and slums are the worst ever.


                                                          yemen actually has 1 team start the game in front of the first HQ and if they have anything resembling a brain then chances are you wont get that first HQ.
                                                          then after you finally destroy it you head to the next HQ where the opponents are respawning next to lol.

                                                          • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                            i know the feeling.. me and my clan was going ham for 5 games in a row against the same people.. they did put up a decent game..


                                                            on the sixth game.. my god.. the 1 shot gods were upon them... leading me to die before i even get a shot off... also they become sponges and asorb all my bullets...


                                                            and the inconcitency of flak jacket.. C4 to the face they survive... with flak jacket.. C4 to my face with flak jacket i die.. lol

                                                            • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                              I have thought the same thing about momentum......up untill lately i had assumed it was Lag /LagComp

                                                              because of people leaving the game in progress and others players joining in progress....


                                                              But the last few nights there have been to many of us who like playing together to party up as one party, so 6 will party up and the rest of us keep trying to join the game in progress until we all get in......and a few times we have managed to get 12 of us in the same game lobby


                                                              I am nowhere near as good as some of the guys, but i am better than some........I have had games where i owned the other team ......12-0 then all of a sudden ......my gun started shooting cottonballs and i end up just barely breaking even or maybe going neg.


                                                              All of us noticed what was going on


                                                              with no one leaving or no new person joining  we joked and said the game was handicapping us

                                                              • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                                I have held back on this topic for a while now but I will say that there is random advantage given and its called lag.

                                                                • Re: Momentum: Does this game give random advantage?

                                                                  For whatever reason, there's no question that the lag comp will sometimes swing wildly from one side to another, but the majority of the time it's planted on the side of those with crap internet. Is nice on those rare occasions that it swings in favor of us with quality connections. The kills come so INCREDIBLY EASY that it almost feels like cheating. Use an SMG or a KAP 40 and your are pretty much invincible even with the tiniest bit of skill. Man, with the lag comp in your favor you can even tear it up with the M8A1, which is pretty much the weakest weapon in the game when lagging.