37 Replies Latest reply on Dec 25, 2012 11:16 PM by TWINDEATHSTAR RSS

    What should be done about SMGs?

      There is already plenty of discussion about how overpowering these weapons are; and there isn't any denying of it. They are blatently overpowering and can desecrate LMG users and some snipers at their adequate ranges. They outgun most weapons at mid range and all guns except shotguns at short range.


      In my opinion they should all have more recoil, less damage at range and also have absolutely no penetration beyond 10 metres. This would only make them viable in close quarters and it would reduce their long range effectiveness so that they stay in their comfort zone where they belong.

      Range should go from: shotguns, SMGs, assault rifles, LMGs, snipers. So there is a clearer definition of the role of the SMG instead of being an all-rounder.


      So yeah, increase recoil, reduce long range damage and reduce penetration at range. That should solve the problem, because it is obvious and it is rightfully justified that they should overpower you at CQ, but not at range, so they have a better defined position and that at range ARs and LMGs should be able to always win, and it will force SMG users to go in close quarter combat like shotguns rather than adopting LMG/AR positions.

        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

          Totally agree!!!

          • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

            They already have sh!t poor long range damage. Recoil is definetly there and if you're skilled enough, you notice it. Penetration ability stays the same across all ranges, so I don't know what you're getting at. Moral of the story?


            Nothing. Nothing should be done about SMGs.

              • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                Correct, they do have poor long range damage, but what is damage when you have a fire rate of over 900? Damage is compensated by fire rate. I came up with a statistic which is damage per second assuming 100% accuracy.

                Let's try the Skorpion Evo

                - (1200/60) = 20 rounds per second. 20 x 33 = 660 damage per second.


                Now let's try the MTAR

                - (700/600) = roughly 12. 12 x 40 = 480 damage per second.


                And this is generally the same throughout the entire class, SMGs outgun assault rifles...




                As for recoil, there is some there but not enough to drag you off-target like the LMG and AR recoil present. But it isn't a hinderence until you get towards LMG range with them.


                And for penetration I was implying that it should be reduced at range, since many times I have been shot through walls that only LMGs should be able to penetrate.

                  • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                    The 33 damage range is so much lower in this game compared to game's past, so you should be doing it like this:



                    Skorpion EVO = 1200/60 = 20 >> 20 x 18 = 360 damage per second with heavy recoil.

                    (The Skorpion has insanely low range, so using the 33 damage figure is proposterous.


                    MTAR = 700/60 = 12 >> 12 x 30 = 360 damage per second with moderate recoil (very controllable)

                    (The MTAR has a very decent range, probably still doing about 30 damage when the Skorp does 18)



                    They do equivelent damage per second in their respectable niches. When the Skorp gets a 6 shot kill, the MTAR is still getting at least a 4. Truly, the Skorpion was a bad example due to its retarded range.

                      • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                        The Skorpion doesn't have 'heavy recoil' it has low recoil and as I observed on the stats website where I got it from, and I am considering this combat battle to be within mid range not long range as you exaggerated.

                          • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                            Try hitting any target smaller than a building with every bullet in a Skorpion's clip.  Hell, even the building will be difficult beyond short range.


                            The guns are fine as is, and they just nerfed SMG penetration and recoil in patch 1.04.  The problem is that too many people don't understand the proper tactics to use with an AR, or LMG, or Sniper, and keep running around getting into short-range engagements with them.  Well, that and a lot of people have difficulty recognizing what "short" and "medium" ranges are within the game.

                              • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                Just watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDaU5WJ933Y


                                At 0:10 before the user has even begun talking, he gets a kill at assault rifle range with ease. And about 4 seconds later he gets another kill and it is so easy to comprehend how little recoil it has.


                                Also watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpUCzBWnEMU


                                Skip to the Skorpion, and you can see he can easily squeeze in 20 rounds before the recoil begins to climb...

                                  • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                    I guessed this before I clicked either one, but the first video was uploaded before patch 1.04 (which adjusted SMG performance).  The second video was actually uploaded before the game's release date, so also before patches 1.03 & 1.02 as well.


                                    I've got at least a few games in with every non-Sniper weapon in this game, and the Skorpion is ridiculously difficult to hold on target even in CQC.


                                    In the first 3 minutes of the first video you linked, I only saw one engagement from mid-range or longer in which the enemy was actually shooting back at him; this was at about the 1:10 mark, and was notably a gunfight which he chose to withdraw from rather than continue.


                                    As far as your example from the second video, he's shooting at a target 10 feet away from him, and the recoil is noticeable on the Skorpion from the second shot onwards.  Even at that minimal range (well within "short" range for the weapon), at least half the rounds from his magazine would have missed a human-sized target, and that's assuming he starts out shooting at the enemy's feet.

                        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                          I do understand where you come from, but let's be Infinity Ward...instead of nerfing things (because when they nerf stuff, they tend to nerf to oblivion), why don't we buff the things that are under-performing?

                          • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                            They have done enough to SMGs as is. You crying about them simply proves you have no scope of what is really wrong with the game outside of "too many people kill me with this gun, so nerf it".


                            Quit being so damn selfish, and focus less on the guns you lose to. Instead focus your energy on what NEEDS fixing, such as boosters, glitchers and lag.

                              • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                Go away, don't talk on my thread if you are going to be an arrogant d***head like that. Seriously, look at what you wrote and then talk about who is crying and being selfish. Stop assuming stuff about my argument and stop saying I am 'crying' about it...

                                • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                  Agreed the lag is the main issue that needs to be fixed, but when you look at the stats of all these guns, you'd realize:


                                  1) SMG's have the same damage rate of the lower end AR's.at close range.

                                  2) SMG's damage dropoff is compensated for by low bullet spread and much faster rate of fire than AR's.



                                  Those that fail to recognize this as a legitimate issue, and those that continue to defend the Run and Gun style of gameplay.... YOU MUST BE SUPER PRO!!!!!!!!!


                                  AR's probably should get a buff. I'm not the best player out there but I shouldn't be taken out by iron sight SMG across the map vs ANY assault rifle, let alone something like an FAL. True this can probably be partially attributed to lag comp since it usually looks like it takes only 2 bullets to kill me from their pea-shooter, but we all know THAT won't get fixed. What is it, 8 years they've had to fix it?

                                    • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                      We all know that stats given in game are BS over 90% of the time. You also have to factor in lag, enemy weapons, etc.


                                      I will say this much: After all this ******** about SMGs, I can't find one I actually LIKE, even after the patch. I switch to them occasionally, but I prefer my ARs and Snipers.


                                      Also, factor in poor map design; the maps are all at least 50%+ CQ, with a few haphazard sight lines thrown in for ARs/Snipers. Don't blame the weapons, blame the devs for designing the game play around them.

                                  • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                    although i sort of agree that something could be done with smgs, i'm not one to ask for nerfs or buffs. i usually just find a weapon i like at different ranges for different maps, and stick with those. i guess they could do like they do with shotguns at range, and just have them do absolutely no damage at range. that would sort of keep a smg user from even bothering to try to shoot you at range, and use them for only close encounters, like most do with shotguns. right now, in my eyes, they are too accurate hipfiring and have too far a range. i don't feel like they should be as good all around as they are. like you said, damage doesn't mean a whole lot if you can keep the thing on target for less than a second, anyways. personally, though, i don't necessarily want a nerf or a buff. just something to think about for future games.

                                    • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                      SMG's were already nerfed - and sufficiently, I might add. The people dropping you a mid-long range are people that PRACTICE with these guns, and have equipped attachments to reduce recoil.


                                      That is - they trade pick 10 points to give their gun more range and accuracy.


                                      This is how the game is MEANT to be played. Counter them. Build an anti-smg class. Ever hear of a ballistic shield? Shotgun? C4? Nade launcher? Stun stick? Claymore? Bouncing betty?


                                      Seriously, I don't even use SMG's anymore really... just on Hijacked and nuketown maybe. Even then... M27/FAL/AN94 can easily outperform them, if you properly equip. All the shotties will win close-range vs SMG.


                                      Only issue I see is vs LMG... If you're getting beat my a SMG at Long with an SR - You simply suck at building classes and/or playing them. Put on Toughness, so when they're peppering you it doesn't screw your aim so much.


                                      But vs LMG... yeah. SMG will probably win. If you're running around with the damn thing. Which you're not suppose to. Cause LMG's are used for covering fire, anti material, anti Scorestreak, and for killing things behind cover. Treat it like n smg, it'll lose. Treat it like a SR, it'll lose.


                                      You have to play to the strength of your guns. This game - and pretty much all competetive online games, are giant complex matches of ROCK PAPER SCISSORS. If SMG's are Scissors - BE A ******* ROCK!

                                        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                          Your theory is valid to an extent, but I don't suck. Toughness is a hit/miss perk (hahaha no pun intended). The only good anti-smg class is a shotgun class and honestly that's just not fun.

                                            • Re: What should be done about SMGs?







                                              M27 - Extended mag, Nade launcher, Quickdraw.

                                              -Toughness and or Fast hands.


                                              -Primary gunfighter.


                                              W/e else you want. Stun sticks, nades, mines. Tac insert really REALLY helps too. Swap out some things - keeping quickdraw and dexterity - that is key - to make a ghost class. Swap out a few things make secondary a shield.


                                              That is an anti-smg class. I find it fun as hell. When i'm on nuketown/hijacked on dem/dom/HP/HQ and getting owned - I pull out this class and own ass. Works with an AN 94 as well. And FAL. And... pretty much any AR you've any skill with.

                                                • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                  I know how to make classes, thanks. Again theory is there but it lacks implementation (at least for me) The lag comp favors shotguns over smg's. smg's over AR's.


                                                  Keep in mind I'm always at the losing end of lag comp, so I have an extremely bitter taste with this game. What may work for you probably won't work for me.

                                                    • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                      Did you set your connection setting to best?

                                                      Do you have a decent internet connection?

                                                      Did you turn off Noise Compensation on your TV settings? - That was my issue. Was on "Medium" And I was being lagged by a half/full second - just from "input lag".


                                                      went from getting negative KDR to 2.5+ overnight.

                                                        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                          Not that you knew any of this (to no fault of your own), but:


                                                          I've been working on computers and networking hardware since I'm 8 years old.

                                                          I graduated from high school early, went to college early.

                                                          I'm a software engineer for over 18 years.

                                                          I'm a hardware engineer for about 11 years.

                                                          I'm an audio engineer for about 12 years.

                                                          I make it a point to read hundreds of articles daily to keep up with current tech.

                                                          I mod just about every device I own.

                                                          Logic is a refined skill I practice daily.

                                                          (funny) I've been literally addicted to games since I was still in diapers.

                                                          I could have been in CAL back in the Counter Strike days.

                                                          The list goes on.


                                                          Not trying to be an elitist (which I am by default), nor am I trying to boast. I'm not trying to be mean either. I just hate generic "is it plugged in?"-esque "tech support".


                                                          I do appreciate the attempt to help, but I have 99% of everything covered on my end, thanks. I will still answer your questions, however.


                                                          Did you set your connection setting to best? Yes.

                                                          Do you have a decent Internet connection? 60Mbps/8Mbps/13ms Ping/1ms Jitter/0% packet loss/Enterprise level router with packet queue priority on all gaming ports (to completely avoid buffer-bloat) - Better than 93% of US connections (real rating).

                                                          Did you turn off Noise Compensation on your TV settings? Yes, as well as any other latency-inducing "feature".

                                                        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                          rock.theory wrote:


                                                          The lag comp favors shotguns over smg's. smg's over AR's.


                                                          This is one of the few arguments for SMGs being "overpowered" that I can't disagree with.  Anyone who often finds themselves on the bad end of lag comp will be outgunned by SMGs the majority of the time.  Of course, that's also true if they're the ones using the SMG, but whatever.


                                                          I've seen much better connections since 1.04 for the most part, but even before that I did okay with ARs by simply slowing my movement rate.  Sprint up to the battle lines, find some cover, scan for enemies...if you see someone, shoot from there; if not, move to another nearby position with cover & repeat.  It's the same tactic they teach you in the Army; 3-5 second rushes followed by scanning for the enemy, "shoot & scoot".  It's not camping as you don't want to stay in the same firing position for too long before moving along, but it's not exactly what most people consider "rushing", either.  Tactical movement.


                                                          Going with one of the higher damage ARs, such as the SCAR-H or AN-94, will also help.  While your opponents will still be able to get off more shots faster because of the lag comp, you'll need fewer hits to get the kill.

                                                            • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                              I love you. "Shoot & Scoot" is my main method of playing. My RnG friend calls it "campy", I call it logical. I'm not debating camping vs RnG, but I am stating that S&S does not work well in this game due to the lag comp favoring RnG play styles.

                                                                • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                                  There was a video on You Tube a while back (probably still is) where a group of active duty military used standard urban warfare tactics in some S&D matches against other people.  They wiped their opponents out in each and every round by keeping their squad intact and alternating movement so that someone was always there for cover fire when their teammate was moving.


                                                                  The conclusion was that it wouldn't work quite as well in game modes with respawning, but in S&D you're basically unstoppable.

                                                        • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                          Bouncing Betties are easily countered without requiring perks and have been nerfed since.  Probably because players refuse to use Engineer or Tactical Mask on their classes and whinge at how overpowered they are.

                                                          • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                            -Jedi- wrote:


                                                            But vs LMG... yeah. SMG will probably win. If you're running around with the damn thing. Which you're not suppose to. Cause LMG's are used for covering fire, anti material, anti Scorestreak, and for killing things behind cover. Treat it like n smg, it'll lose. Treat it like a SR, it'll lose.


                                                            That's the problem:


                                                            Cover penetration is good enough on ARs and SMGs anyway.


                                                            FMJ is a doo-doo of an attachment and is nowhere near the strength of Blind Eye Pro in MW3.


                                                            Not enough areas of the maps that allow suppressive fire when compared to MW3.


                                                            ADSing takes about a minute unless you use Quickdraw so you then may have to use Primary Gunfighter.  LMG users may wish to use Suppressor so if you want Adjustable Stock as well then that will be 5 points spent.  I could actually run and gun with a sniper rifle more easily because the ADS time is quicker on them than to LMGs but LMGs do have a limited form for closer engagements even if they're not true CQC weapons.


                                                            If they don't have more equal map design to cater for specific weapons then at least make the weapon camo and levelling up for them quicker since they are less represented by map design in usage.

                                                          • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                            nothing should be done with them they are fine the way they are

                                                            • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                              IMHO  they could use a tad more recoil, in watching kill cams, I see almost no movement when I am klled by a skorp, or pdw, or the Chicom.....not the MP7 however......but I think theres more to this problem than meets the eye, I believe with the smaller map size, the chracters speed is a tad too fast IMO...especially if you switch to the knife and run with it.....enemies can be 'on' you in a blink of an eye...if anything they should slow the 'running' down a bit....if anything need recoil added, its the damn snipers...the semi autos can fire of 5 rounds with out so much as a tick of movement of the sights.....but really, in this game, all you need is a pistol and knife, and you can do just as well as using any other weapon...that should say something about this game in itself

                                                                • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                                  The Killcams are not spot on. They don't make the recoil relevent to talk about. You have to use the weapons and you'll find most of them have pretty decent recoil. The only one that doesn't is the MSMC, but that's to be expected with a Carbine (Which is what it is)...

                                                                  MSMC - Modern Sub Machine Carbine

                                                                • Re: What should be done about SMGs?

                                                                  SMGs are fine the way they are. Assault rifles actually win.


                                                                  get a better team together noob