13 Replies Latest reply on Dec 2, 2012 3:02 AM by adw1983 RSS

    Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

      Just going to jump to the chase this time:



      M27: Needs slightly better handling to compete. Otherwise balanced, as it's one of the best ARs for medium and long range combat.

      Problem is: Where is the medium and long ranges not infested with snipers?


      MTAR: Why is it a 5 hit kill on longer ranges? Otherwise balanced. Could have had an even more improved 4 hit kill range compared to Type 25.


      Type 25: Borderliner -- but is fine if M27 gets better handling and MTAR becomes better on longer ranges


      AN94: Balanced.


      SCAR-H: Useless on long range, outclassed by Type 25 on short range and long range, and outclassed by AN94 on every range imaginable.

      Outclassed by all assault rifles on long range, now that I think about it.


      M8: Needs slightly more recoil AND a larger burst-fire delay.

      This is going to see competetive play a whole lot as the best assault rifle in the game hands down.

      Put on selective fire, and it blows Type 25 out of the water and into space for short range combat.


      SWAT556: Balanced enough -- if M8 gets some more recoil and a longer burst-fire delay.

      Otherwise, it's completely outclassed by the M8.


      FAL: Needs slightly more recoil and to be a 4 hit kill on very long ranges -- it's already the best precision rifle in the game.

      This is going to see competetive play a whole lot.


      SMR: Needs to have the same rate of fire as the FAL -- or to have 65-48 damage, for a better chance of bullet penetration kills. Look at Mk14 in MW3 -- or even M14 versus G3 in CoD4 -- where the G3 was the best rifle because of it's accuracy, despite the lower base damge AND both of them having the same rate of fire.

      M14 was only useful on short range -- like the SMR is now.

      Except the FAL is better on short range in Black Ops 2, too.

      It's rate of fire is very annoying, and I'd rather see it have even worse-hip-fire and even longer ADS times if it is allowed to fire as fast as the FAL.

      (It already has worse hip-fire and longer time to aim down the sights -- but it's main problem is ALWAYS, chronically, losing to SMGs on short range no matter your setup -- unlike the FAL which thrives on shorter ranges. And medium ranges. And long ranges, And sniper-range.)





      MP7: Needs more sway to deter players from using it for extreme ranges. Not faster; MORE, so that the sight doesn't allow you to full auto on 30 meters with such impunity.


      PDW57: Needs more sway to deter players from using it for extreme ranges. I tap-shoot enemies with relative ease on any range the 5 to 6 times I need to hit them.


      Vector: Needs more sway...


      MSMC: Needs more sway OR more recoil -- preferably vertical recoil instead of sway, making it a skill-weapon.


      Chicom CQB: The undiscovered diamond. More recoil.


      Skorpion EVO: Nerf the appearances. Seriously. It's the best looking weapon in the game, by miles.

      Make the recoil slightly more random left and right. It's upwards recoil is fine.





      SVU: It's a compact sniper rifle: Give it faster ADS speed already! Currently, it's the slowest-killing weapon in the game, killing in 0.60 seconds when going from idle to aiming down the sights and shooting twice.

      Compare that to the FAL which kills in 0.24 seconds with quickdraw handle, when going from idle to aiming down the sights and shooting twice. For three hit kill ranges, it needs 0.355 seconds to kill. It's so much faster than the SVU that you can get off 5 rounds fired accurately down the sights before the SVU has had a realistic chance of killing.

      Also needs a one headshot kill with a silencer.


      XPR50: The only sniper that requires you to hold breath.


      Ballista: Balanced: Aims faster down the sights than DSR.


      DSR: Balanced: Kills to the groin, unlike the ballista.





      Quickdraw handle: Mandatory. Should not cause you to get off two shots before the enemy has had the time to fire even once, but cause you to fire FIRST.

      How about 0.85x ADS time instead of x0.5 or x0.6 as it appears to be now?


      Adjustable stock: Overpowered because of the already insane strafe speed. On consoles, strafing with the adjustable stock often means that enemies with default sensitivity CANNOT follow you with their sights when you strafe.

      Fun fact: Aiming down the sights with SMGs with adjustable stock INCREASES your run speed by a tiny almost unnoticable bit.

      Base strafe speeds needs to go down, not necessarily the adjustable stock's bonus movement speed.


      Foregrip: Apart from LMGs, ingame testing simply does not give me any noticable results. It's competing with the silencer, but does not even cancel out the recoil increase from the silencer.

      Does it even do anything at all for non-LMGs? I have no idea.

      It is much less useful for the SCAR-H and SMR than for the M14 in Black Ops 1.


      Range indicator: Testing on the M27 and XPR50, two of the weapons that interest me -- and it's close to useless.

      Weapons with low sway benefit more than weapons with high sway.


      Silencers: Balanced. It gives a noticable increase in recoil, but only a subtle decrease in range. The power of staying off the radar is extreme.


      Selective fire: Useless for all weapons, except: FAL, M8, AN94 and SWAT556.


      Target finder and MMS: Completely outclasses the Reflex Sight.


      Holographic sights: Has more zoom than the reflex sight and MMS,and is decent enough.


      Long barrel: Balanced; Every attachment should add power, not be balanced out to 0 -- and this does by increasing range.


      Extended maga... clips: Is M1 garand even in the game? Useless. Longer reload times you say? Attachments should not be balanced out to 0 -- but give a noticable advantage!


      Rapid-fire: Balanced through nerfed damage output by extreme reduction in range, and higher recoil.





      Hardline: Balanced.


      Lightweight: Ugh... Putting lightweight on my SMG profiles increases my survivability. That is just disturbing, but increased speed means you outrun what other players see on their screens in a larger degree, causing more frustration for your enemies.

      Getting where you want to be faster and before the enemy is powerful enough. Being able to dodge bullets Neo-style is just pushing it.

      The same effect is not achieved with ARs or snipers -- although you do get where you want to be, faster, at the least.

      Once again, the already insane strafe speed rears it's ugly head.

      Strafing in real life wielding a weapon is a recipe for disaster, and you sure as hell do not run sideways nearly as fast as forward when having a weapon in hand ready to fire from the hip.


      Ghost: Balanced for SMGs. Should not reveal prone Ghost-users, allowing snipers a break from constant SMG users chasing their red dots.

      Prone players are at a serious disadvantage versus flanking enemies.


      Flak Jacket: Survive claymores and bouncing betties. Just as if you were using engineer, except you get killed by the guy placing them -- unlike the engineer who race past them and kill the person who placed them before they go off.




      Sentry gun. Stealth chopper.

      What else is there to be afraid of, really?

      Sentry-guns can still kill you because of manual control.


      Hard-wired: Should just be merged with Blind-eye, as both are horribly underpowered, and ONLY useful in a class you switch to in order to avoid the four killstreaks both of them combined help against: Counter-UAV, EMP, Sentry Gun and Stealth Helicopter.


      Cold-blooded: Balanced enough, but doesn't negate the effect from the target-finder.


      Fast hands: Kind of a niché. Only ever truly useful for snipers, overkill-users and shield-users -- as well as scavenger-abusers, but those already have problems fitting the Perk Slot 2 wildcard. Balanced enough.


      Scavenger: Overpowered as hell. Toss stick. Shotgun. Pick up. Toss stick. Shotgun. Pick up. Toss stick.

      When people figure out bouncing betties + planted shield, or even stick + shield + shotgun, and other tricks, the use is going to explode. Pun not intended.

      Because everyone killed by weapons leave claymores, C4, semtex and bouncing betties, you have an infinite supply if you follow teammates.

      Running scavenger with semtex WILL ruin Headquarters, Domination, Demolition and Hardpoint.

      It's only a matter of time.

      Flak Jacket is useless against 9999x semtex, and generally useless against explosives of all types that can be spammed with scavenger abuse.

      Yes I know only bullets leave scavenger packs.

      But consider the fact that there's likely to be dead people around the areas of interest, and therefor scavenger packs all over the areas that are sensitive to scavenger-abuse.

      Whenever there is a pack, you're being silly if you don't randomly throw a semtex towards the enemies general direction before picking it up.


      Toughness: The only perk 2 I ever use without the perk 2 wildcard, or when sniping.

      With any other perk, my character spasms out of any gunfight the enemy gets his sights on me.

      So: Either never get hit (SMG + silencer + lightweight + ghost), or use toughness.

      The effect should not be reduced, but the spasms characters are thrown into when hit should be marginally reduced to make the perk less mandatory.

      Admittedly, users of weapons with fast rates of fire and low recoil are not as affected as weapons users of weapons with low rates of fire and high recoil.

      Meaning the SMGs don't NEED this perk unless they use the SMG for long range.


      Dexterity: A very good perk for any profile that is ment to flank or surprise enemies.

      Maps have incredibly many climbing-routes, and dexterity lets you fly through windows and over walls.

      Balanced enough.


      Awareness: ONLY useful when you are the last man standing in search and destroy AND you lay prone waiting for your prey.

      Seriously. that is the ONLY TIME you want to have the perk, because that is the only time you CAN hear someone coming.

      Oh. You need to have a headset for it to work, too.


      Dead silence: As useful as a pump action shotgun attachment to your pump action shotgun. It could've been cool if you could fire both barrels at once, but you can't. Err. I don't know how that latter analogy fits Dead Silence, but the thought was amusing none the less, and more interesting than Dead Silence.

      You only ever want dead silence if you're alone in search and destroy and are up against the last person on their team -- and he uses awareness, laying prone in the grass, waiting for you.

      Yes. It's THAT marginal.


      Tactical mask: Why wasn't this merged with Flak Jacket already? As useful as a shotgun attachment on your shotgun attachment... Except firing it does not pump and load your first shotgun attachment. Even though that WOULD be useful.


      Engineer: Marginally overpowered.

      BOTH lets you SEE the explosives AND delays them so that you can run over them anyway?

      Flak Jacket is envious, and Scavenger HATES the engineer more than he hates Flak Jacket.

        • Test #1
          Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2



          Shotties - All good. Pump actions need slightly quicker pump if Fast Hands equipped.


          SMG - Alll SMG's need either ALOT more recoil, or almost total damage drop off at long range. Shotties on this game behave like real shotties, why can't SMG's behave like real SMG's? They only have 9mm shells, like a handgun, therefore the range of an SMG should be about the same as a handgun. Also, Skorpion needs an ever so slightly slowed down RoF, IMO. It's so quick even the bullet counter in the bottom right corner can't keep up LOL.


          AR - M8A1 maybe needs bit more recoil. SMR and FAL need toying with so one is better at short range, and one at long range. I'd probably say the SMR should be the long range weapon, as the reload animation is slightly longer. Rest is fine.


          LMG - Havn't used any of them, so don't know.


          Sniper - Buff SVU slightly. Rest are fine.


          Handguns - B23R needs less power. Rest are fine.




          Target finder should make more recoil, apart from that no complaints here. FYI, Adjustable Stock is same as Stalker perk in MW3.Noone ever complained about that, so no complaining should EVER be heard.




          All good. Maybe make concussion's slightly weaker to those without Tac Mask. Or make the Smoke Grenade the default equipped Tactical @ Lvl 1, forcing people to buy the strong Concussion.




          Remember that, in a sense, Perks are now basically only counters to ALL weapons, equipment, attachments, and scorestreaks. Couple of exceptions.


          Ghost - 2 views here. If you really want to complicate it, make the min activation speed when people walk ADS'ing. Also, snipers who are prone should not be seen. People capturing or on top of objectives, especially in Hardpoint, should NEVER be seen. Or just put it back as it was. Only UAV protection. I appreciate you're trying something different, but complicating things just ruins things. Keep it simple.


          Flak Jacket - I am an avid FJ user, and I think it's just right. 2 WELL PLACED/COOKED grenades or semtex still kill me. 1 sticky still kills me. (You can't throw grenades, not my problem, I can.) Hunter Killer drones still kill me. RC cars still kill me if you get it right at my feet. Protected from Betties and Claymores, but still get badly hurt.


          Hard Wired - Do something so that it gets used at all. Maybe take the delayed trigger of explosives off of Engineer, and put it on this.


          Awareness - Major buff needed. However, people using Dead Silence should be cancelled out, and sound like normal.


          Engineer - S'all good, but both seeing equipment and delaying it in the same perk is quite pointless. Put the delayed trigger on Hard Wired.


          Tac Mask - Fine. FJ protects from explosives and Lethals, Tac Mask protects from Tacticals.


          Rest are fine -

          • Lightweight
          • Blind Eye
          • Hardline
          • Toughness
          • Fast Hands
          • Scavenger
          • Clod Blooded
          • Dexterity
          • Extreme Conditioning
          • Dead Slience,


          Oh, and @ OP, merging FJ and Tac Mask would make a WAAAAAAAAAY overpowered perk, and that is all that would be used.

          Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 4:52 AM
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              Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

              SMG damage is fine (they are all 4-6 shot kills) and most are actually PDWs in this game so they don't actually fire pistol rounds, Back on subject SMGs need a small hipfire increase and a small recoil increase.


              all the ARs could do with small recoil increase but for the most part they are fine


              LMGs are lasers, there only down fall is their handling.


              Snipers, The SVU doesn't need a buff it needs the hit box fixing currently you can shoot people in the arms and certain parts of the chest and the bullets will go though without damage


              Shotguns are fine


              Attachments are fine: Target finder does add more recoil but there is so little to start with you can't notice, Also there was stalker complaints


              all the perks are fine as is, ghost could do with some minor tweaks and of course awairness/dead silence should do the job they are ment for.

              Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:19 AM
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                  Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                  OK, I'll rephrase. I never heard anyone complain about Stalker. I used it all the time, and noone ever complained at me.


                  If we wanna get pedantic...


                  According to in-game description, the only PDW's are the MP7 and PDW 57, all others are submachine guns. So why is the MSMC and Skorpion stronger than the PDW'S? Also, in the future setting, which this game is set in, SMG's and PDW's of any sort would and will be obselete and be replaced by Bullpup assault rifles.


                  But again, if we wanna get pedantic...

                  Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:40 AM
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                      Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                      Stalker has always been a problem, as it causes even more desynch than normal strafing.

                      Dead Silence is just more "powerful", because concealment > cover.


                      With permanent dead silence, and with massive desynch problems -- strafing with SMGs while hip-firing is already trollolol-land in Black Ops 2.


                      You simply won't get hit because the enemies shoot at where they see you on their screen, while they won't hit you in the actual game world.


                      I went 26-0 and 33-2 using this knowledge on suited maps. Slums is perfect, because you have wide alleyways you can strafe on.

                      Enemies who aim down their sights simply cannot hit you, and their aim assist work agains them -- deflecting their aim off you as you go, and possible sticking to where you are not in the game world as well, making aiming ahead of you nearly impossible, because the sight speeds up again once they have defeated the sticky-aim trap that causes them to miss.


                      Hip-firing counters this problem to a large degree.

                      Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:59 AM
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                    Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                    Scavenger will be banned in any serious tournament as it is now, so it won't really be much of a problem.

                    However, it's only a matter of time before the mentioned game modes are unplayable -- especially in the League Play playlists that don't enforce competetive rules.


                    The M8, Type 25, FAL and AN94 are the only assault rifles that will be used competetively, with the current maps.

                    Some may use the MTAR for it's more controllable recoil (compared to Type 25 and AN94) -- leaving the M27 completely out in the cold with the SMR and SCAR-H.

                    Which is funny, because the M27 is a blueprint copy of the CoD4 M4 -- one of the best weapons in the game.

                    Weapons in Black Ops are generally much more powerful.


                    SMGs are all balanced in their tier, except they are ALL way too accurate, always posing a serious threat on all ranges.

                    Look at CoD4.

                    ALL SMGs killed in 4 hits on long ranges with stopping power. That's 4 quick taps on the trigger.

                    Why didn't they?

                    They had so much sway (amount, not speed) that they were too unreliable.

                    In BLOPS2, the SMGs have low enough sway and recoil to allow tap-fire on extreme ranges.


                    Engineer would still be used over Flak Mask for all game modes; Knowledge is power.

                    Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:45 AM
                      • Test #1
                        Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                        adw1983 wrote:


                        Engineer would still be used over Flak Mask for all game modes; Knowledge is power.

                        Playing Obj game modes, and actually capping game Obj's, which would be more useful? I appreciate you can get your Hats out and hack all Betties and whatnot with Engineer, but if both teams are trying to get B flag in Dom right at the start, both teams meet in the middle, and explosives and Tacticals just go everywhere. I'm not saying you're wrong, but 9/10 times, I think people just go for the perks that have the most benefits.

                        Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:55 AM
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                          Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                          adw1983 wrote:


                          Scavenger will be banned in any serious tournament as it is now, so it won't really be much of a problem.

                          LOL'd at this. And soon they'll ban FJ. Over time, I'm surprised they don't ban everything in serious tournies, and just have a game mode that everyone runs round throwing sand in each others' faces.

                          Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 6:51 AM
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                              Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                              They only ban blatantly overpowered or disruptive elements.


                              The fact that "normal" users don't understand game balance is only to be expected.


                              It does not require a rocket scientist to explain how infinite C4 or RPGs can become a problem, does it?


                              If scavenger was allowed in a tournament, flak jacket would be mandatory.

                              Thus scavenger is both disruptive and overpowered, because it forces everyone into using one single perk unless they don't intend to do the objectives.

                              It is disruptive because you have incentive to throw a grenade every single time you pass over a package if you already have two grenades.

                              Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 7:15 AM
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                                  Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                                  1. If they're called "serious" tournies, and players there are "pro", surely they can find their way around anything in the game, and change and adapt instead of banning stuff because someone got the hump that they didn't have the idea to do the same thing. I played GB when MW2 came out, but when Bling was banned, I didn't any more. (Didn't use Bling, but it's principle. I thought that rule was a tad babyish, why not just ban attachments)


                                  2. Scavenger is not blatantly OP. If a C4 is not put in the P10 system, Scavenger will not replenish a C4. It will only repleniush what you have picked to use, or if you pick up an enemy weapon. So if u wanna ban anything, ban the C4.


                                  3. If using two claymores because you have Scavenger is your way of playing, who is anyone else to argue, b*tch and moan, and subsequently get scavenger/claymores banned? Do they also ban AK74U's with grip/rapid fire, camping and just general strategy? I find this idea laughable, hence I LOL'd at yoour post.

                                  Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 7:37 AM
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                                      Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                                      1: Why not allow steroids in sports too?

                                      Serious contenders can just adapt or use it themselves.


                                      The problem is that it changes the game and makes it more one-dimensional.

                                      I gather that you have never played MW2 -- or were one of those people that used infinite tubes in hardcore.


                                      How can anything perk or secondary compete with "infinite explosives"??


                                      2: Claymores, betties, C4, semtex are balanced.

                                      Infinite claymores, betties, C4 and semtex are not.


                                      3: Claymores is only one problem.

                                      Infinite semtex is another.

                                      Flak Jacket protects somewhat against ONE explosive.

                                      In hardcore, it does nothing.

                                      Problem is, with Scavenger you can easily throw 3-5 semtex at an objective within seconds, because there are dead bodies shot by bullets everywhere.

                                      Flak Jacket is like placing a bandaid on cancer.

                                      Last Edited: Dec 2, 2012 3:01 AM
                            • Test #1
                              Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                              Base SMG and AR hip fire spreads need to be wider, and that bloody steady aim laser shouldn't be as accurate as it is. Sick of getting dropped from distance by people hip firing with or without that laser thing, seems deadly accurate either way.

                              Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 5:48 AM
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                                Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2

                                Agree with everything you said


                                All good. Maybe make concussion's slightly weaker to those without Tac Mask. Or make the Smoke Grenade the default equipped Tactical @ Lvl 1, forcing people to buy the strong Concussion


                                Like this alot

                                Last Edited: Dec 1, 2012 6:43 AM
                                • Test #1
                                  Re: Weapon, attachment  and perk balance feedback V2



                                  And the base strafe speed needs to go down, especially when aiming down the sights with SMGs.


                                  Last Edited: Dec 2, 2012 3:02 AM