19 Replies Latest reply on Jan 27, 2013 6:30 PM by trialstardragon RSS

    How to buff the underpowered guns!


      Treyarch promised they'd balance the weapons based on the weapons' statistical performance ingame in the hands of the players.
      Here's the weapons current settings:



      When the statistics hit the table, they will learn that PDW-57 and Vector are overpowered in the SMG class (too accurate, and kills too fast for their accuracy), and that compared to ARs -- the MP7 and USMC and the burst fire SMG are too good.


      That's all fine.
      They should probably all have HEAVY SWAY to deter them from being effective on longer ranges, or slightly increased recoil in some cases.

      But those are overpowered weapons.


      In the case of the clearly underpowered weapons; SCAR-H, SVU and SMR -- how should they be balanced?


      SCAR-H kills in 3-4 hits on reasonable distances, firing 600 rounds per minute.

      M27 kills in 4-5 hits on reasonable distances, firing 720 rounds per minute.

      You will immediately notice that they're pretty balanced.

      IF they have the same recoil values, that is.

      However, the SCAR-H has a useless recoil, and is thus useless compared to the M27, which kills as fast and is incredibly much more accurate.

      This game is all about heads poking out over walls, and the M27, SWAT556, M8, MTAR and FAL are ALL capable of hitting those heads.

      The SCAR-H needs to push through that cover and kill the guy by penetrating the wall, reducing it's damage dramatically.
      Remember that it barely would kill faster than the more accurate weapons even if you hit with all your shots, and that one miss makes it kill slower than the more accurate rifles.

      My balance suggestions:

      First and formost: Don't make it a 5 hit kill on extreme ranges. That's just cruel: The M8 can two-burst kill on that distance RELIABLY.
      1: Increase bullet penetration value of ALL battle rifles, and make FMJ even more powerful.

      2: Reduce the recoil slightly to make it actually hit targets when burst-firing


      SVU can only one hit kill on a headshot, and only when unsilenced.

      It takes 0.42 seconds to aim down the sights, and ACOG does not seem to help at all.

      Compare that to a FAL which kills on 2-3 hits depending on range, and that can be aimed down the sights in 0.13 seconds with quickdraw handle

      Or even SMR; 0.14 seconds with a quickdraw handle.

      The SVU's main disadvantage is that it's utterly useless on long range, and even more useless on short range because you can't aim down the sights as a response to spotting an enemy.

      A user of an SMG may aim down the sights and fire 10 rounds by the time the SVU is ready to fire.

      By the time you have fired 2 rounds needed for the kill versus the moving target, he has had time to fire 3 - 4 more rounds at you.

      A FAL user may aim down the sights and fire 4 rounds before the SVU is ready to fire the first shot -- making the FAL better for sniping:
      3 hits with low scope sway and 0.13 seconds to aim down the sights, firing up to 500 rounds per minute / 8 rounds per second.

      My balance suggestion:
      Reduce the ADS time to 0.32 seconds.

      It will never be used for quickscoping, because it needs two hits, and EVERY assault rifle STILL gets shots fired before the SVU -- multiple shots when using quickdraw grip on the AR.

      Give it a quickdraw handle, as the only sniper. It takes an attachment slot, after all.


      SMR has moderately high recoil, and is extremely difficult to use versus heads poking up over objects on all ranges, compared to every other assault rifles in the game bar the SCAR-H, which suffers the same fate in this "cover based" shooter..
      The FAL kills in two hits on short range, and is extremely accurate compared to the SMR, while the SMR has a lower rate of fire.

      On long range, the FAL blows the SMR out of the water, squeezing the SMR into a medium-range weapon.

      The FAL is BETTER than SMR on short and long range -- and on medium range too, if there's enemies behind cover.

      That makes SMR outclassed.

      Increase the base damage from 50 to 65 or 70, so that it can actually kill in two hits through thin cover, making it a "brute force" variant compared to the FAL's accurate approach.

      Increase minimum damage to 45 as well, so that it stands a chance of three hit killing targets through cover on long range, once again giving it an opportunity to nearly match the FAL.


      AN-94 could use some better bullet penetration and a 33 minimum damage: Once again, 5 hit kill is BRUTAL when the weapon fires slower and with less accuracy than, for instance, the M27 which can full-auto a 5 hit kill on absurd ranges with grip and stabilizer.

        • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

          Nobody is interested in using the SMR, SVU or SCAR-H without feeling completely gimped?

          • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

            Aside from Hardcore, the SVU is pretty much useless, It definitely will need something to make it more usable in Core gametypes. I think faster ADS is probably a reasonable buff.

            The Scar-H is pretty good in close quarters and against exposed enemies. Maybe a slightrecoil deduction but it isn't too underpowered.


            Good Post

            • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

              adw1983, where's the shotgun love here? They're all poop. I'm sad to hear that Treyarch will buff/nerf weapons based on player's performance in-game. I mean, for example, people can boost, play against noobs, camp and whatnot to get many kills with every weapon, making them all seem good. Then, Treyarch would see that there aren't any good/bad weapons in-game when in fact their shotguns blow hardcore! The KSG has good range, power, and power at range, but, you're firing a slug so it's very hard to shoot your target - esspecially with you're dealing with lag which is very common.


              Pker, shotguns are terrible in this game. Just because you're getting owned by them doesn't mean they're OP. You're just probably having some laggy games and some people are just getting lucky and catching you in really tight areas that these mediocre shotguns are barely effective in. Besides, they need laser sights because Treyarch made shotgun hipfiring so bad, as if they weren't already inferior to all other weaponry already.

                • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                  Very true. The shotguns in this game are terrible.  The one shot kill range while ads with long barrel on the R870 is less than the stock mw3 spas with steady aim.  The mw3 spas with steady aim was able to consistently one shot kill out to 12-14 meters with perfect aim.  The 870 can do about 11-12 meters while ads and perfect aim.  mw3 STOCK spas one shot kills up to 2-3 meters further without needing to ads.  And the stock mw3 spas sucks so much balls its not even funny.


                  The current 870 does 50-10 damage with descrete ranges.  I don't think its damage drop is linear anymore.  It drops from that 50 damage per pellet very fast.  Like maybe 3-4 meters fast.  These shotguns in the context of the game they are in are some of the worst shotguns in cod to date.

                • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                  I wouldn't want to buff underpowered guns, because then the game would be destroyed with every single weapon shooting lasers out of the barrel.


                  I suggest tweaking the "Overpowered" guns if there is such thing. Sniper sway should be increased by loads if standing up, less when crouching, and near to none when prone.


                  Shotguns with long barrel and laser sights has to go though.


                  Many SMG's need a hip fire spread. Many don't use the laser sight and it seems like a dead on spray. (Skorpion EVO)

                  • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                    This is an intersting write up. 


                    First I think all the SMG's are OP when you add into the formula the auto aim system.  With or without the laser sight (Steady aim) an SMG hipfiring will rarely lose.  I agree all SMG's need to have significant sway to make them less effective at a distance  or the auto aim needs to not work if there is no laser attachment.  The game needs to require some skill and running around knowing you can win almost any battle without aiming is not the answer. 


                    I guess I am using the wrong weapons according to your analysis.  My go to weapon is the SCAR, then the FAL or SMR, then the first shotgun.  My last resort is my "I am a no skill 12 year old" class, which consists of an SMG with one of the OP weapons and the great auto aim assist feature.


                    The shotguns other than the first one are all highly underpowered.  Near impossible to get a kill with. I think the range and fall off is right on the shotguns I just think the damage needs to be increased on all but the first unlocked shotgun.  I was using the last shotgun to unlock and I would put 4 rounds in at close range and would not get a kill.  That is a bit too extreme and way underpowered. 

                      • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                        If you play defensively, the SCAR-H and SMR works.

                        Against targets in the open.


                        What do when an opponent has cover?
                        Fire single shot while he can full auto versus your head?


                        I can only take comfort in the fact that my failure with the weapons contribute to the negative KD with those weapons, and thus they will get fixed if David is up to his words of balancing weapons based on the user statistics.


                        I do much better running around only with a pistol than I do with the SMR, SVU and SCAR-H, as an assaulter, doing what assault rifles were meant to do.


                        A game should NEVER make players feel horrible, using the weapons of their choice the way they were meant to be used.


                        Of course, I could go 20-10 with them, camping my arse off... but that, once again, is not how the game is meant to be played.

                        Assault rifles are MADE for assaulting on short, medium and long ranges -- with focus on medium ranges.


                        The developers KNEW the M14 in Black Ops 1 wasn't up to par -- or should have know if they did their job properly.

                        Yet, every semi-automatic weapon in Black Ops 2 is worse.

                        The Galil was extremely good in Black Ops 1 -- yet the SCAR-H is absolutely horrible in comparison.


                        As predicted: Switching to from SCAR-H to SWAT556 resulted in a massive improvement:


                        1.38 KD LOSS
                        0.33 KD LOSS

                        0.64 KD LOSS

                        Swiching to SWAT:

                        6.8 KD WIN

                        3.45 KD WIN.

                        4.22 KD WIN

                        Switching to SMR:
                        1.20 KD LOSS

                        0.75 KD LOSS

                        Switching to PDW57:

                        This was the same map as I went 0.75 on with the SMR, a large map -- and I went on an absolute rampage, getting over 30 kills with less than 10 deaths, winning the game with ease.

                        It's not my connection.
                        It's not my lack of skill.


                        4 of my deaths in the .75 game on the large desert map with the broken plane:
                        I fire 3 rounds against an opponent's chest, but only get one hit detection, and I die. With the SWAT556, I would've gotten a kill.
                        I fire 2 rounds into the opponent's torso from 3 meters, but miss on the second shot despite the sight being on target on my screen, and get killed.

                        I fire 5 rounds on target and still get killed on 15 meters range. SWAT would've helped.

                        I fire 3 rounds on target and still get killed on 3 meters range because the guy gets around the corner and disappears, and comes out behind me.

                          • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                            I think its just you not handling the gun right. The fire rate on the SCAR is kinda slow but as long as you are chest-to-head shooting, its a powerful gun.  I use it and its one of my favorite ARs.  It pales in comparison to the Type 25 (imo), but I think it just depends on your playstyle, its not the game's fault...

                              • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                                Firstly: All weapons cause just as much flinch in every CoD before Black Ops 2, and there are no damage multipliers for chest.
                                The head multiplier is broken: You need three headshots to kill on short range.


                                It pales in comparison to:

                                M27: Kills just as fast on short range, with much better accuracy for medium and long range, and is also good against targets behind cover fired fully automatic on any range.


                                MTAR: Kills much faster on short range, just as fast on medium range and has much better accuracy for long range, and is also decent against targets behind cover fired fully automatic on medium range, and is better than SCAR-H burst-fired.


                                Type 25: Kills faster on short range, with much better accuracy for medium and long range, and can easily take out people behind cover


                                SWAT556: Kills faster on short range, with much better accuracy for medium and long range, and is probably the best assault rifle versus enemies behind cover.
                                Fully automatic, it kills faster on short range, with much better accuracy for medium and long range.


                                AN-94: Kills faster on short range, with better accuracy for medium and long range, and can much more easily and reliably, and faster, burst fire against heads and upper chests above cover.


                                FAL: Kills faster on short range, with better accuracy for medium and long range, and can hit heads poking out over cover on any distance as fast as you can pull the trigger.


                                M8: Kills much much faster on short range, with much better accuracy for medium and long range, and can hit heads poking over cover at any distance.
                                With grip, it's just absurd.
                                Fully automatic, and it's just like the auto SWAT and Type 25.


                                ONLY the SMR doesn't outshine the SCAR-H in every scenario.


                                Short range versus enemy in the open, while behind cover:

                                1: M8 and FAL (Kills MUCH faster)

                                2: SMR, SWAT556, MTAR, Type 27 and AN94

                                3: SCAR-H and M27


                                Short range behind cover versus enemy behind cover:
                                1: M8 and FAL

                                2: SWAT556, Type 25 and MTAR

                                3: AN94 and M27

                                4: SCAR-H and SMR


                                Short range in the open versus enemy behind cover:

                                1: M8 and FAL

                                2: SWAT556, Type 25 and MTAR

                                3: M27

                                4: AN94

                                5: SCAR-H

                                6: SMR


                                Medium range behind cover versus enemy in the open:

                                1: M27,  SMR, SWAT556 and Type 25

                                2: MTAR, M8 and AN94

                                3: SCAR-H and FAL

                                (The FAL's accuracy doesn't matter on this range versus a target in the open and it kills slower than on short range already. Of all the assault rifles, the SCAR-H and SMR are the only rifles not guaranteed to hit.)


                                Medium range behind cover versus enemy behind cover:

                                1: M8, M27, SWAT556 and FAL (<-- These rifles have both accuracy and killspeed)

                                2: MTAR, SMR, Type 25 and AN94 (<-- These rifles lack accuracy or killspeed)

                                3: SCAR-H and SMR (<-- Lacks accuracy and killspeed)


                                Medium range in the open versus enemy behind cover:
                                1: M8, M27, SWAT556 and FAL (<-- These rifles have both accuracy and killspeed)

                                2: MTAR, Type 25 and AN94 (<-- These rifles lack accuracy or killspeed)

                                3: SCAR-H and SMR (<-- These rifles are useless against enemies behind cover when you are in danger)


                                Long range behind cover versus enemy in the open:
                                1: FAL, M8 and M27 (These rifles never miss a shot and can easily hit targets on long range at high firerates)

                                2: SWAT556 (This rifle is extremely good on long range)

                                3: MTAR and Type 95 (These rifles can be burst-fired for a relatively slow kill)

                                4: SMR and SCAR-H (These rilfles must be fired single shot and you have to wait for the recoil to settle)


                                Long range doesn't change.


                                SCAR-H does nothing -- NOTHING better than any other assault rifle.

                                It is the ONLY assault rifle that doesn't have ANY advantage on any range.


                                MTAR: The best fully automatic rifle for short range.

                                FAL: The fastest killer on short range, and best AR for long range against targets behind cover.

                                Type 25: The fastest killing automatic assault rifle on medium range with the accuracy to hit targets on medium range reliably

                                M27: The best fully automatic assault rifle versus enemies behind cover, with it's superior accuracy.

                                SWAT556: Burst-fire kills faster than MTAR but is less forgiving, and fully automatic, it rivals Type 25 for short and medium range -- while it's burst-fire mode is extreme on medium range.

                                AN94: The most reliable fully automatic assault rifle for medium range combat when manually burst-fired. It's niche is so small that I would like a small buff for it, however.

                                M8: Overall beastily, and best assault rifle for long range. The most versatile rifle in the game with selective fire, only held back by it's relatively small kills per magazine compared to SWAT556's kills per magazine: 3 with 50% accuracy versus SWAT556's 5 with 50% accuracy.



                          • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                            Why buff the SVU, it's for spamming rounds while hardscoped, and works really well. The Scar H is a beast if you fire in bursts. It makes enemies flinch like crazy. I'm reserving judgement of the SMR until I unlock select fire, because the full auto FAL is so good. I'm attempting to prestige every weapon and use all attachments in the process. I don't think SMG's are OP because with dual wield B23R I can triple kill in CQC with ease. The CoD community hates getting killed by shotguns. Remember how good the Spas and AA12 were in MW2. Blops 1 had Spas and stakeout, and everyone despised the Striker in MW3. Even if the shotguns are balanced with other weapons non shotgun users will complain. That being said the 870's performance doesn't seem to match its stats. Although, I've had great sucess with the S12 popping off three rounds and occasionally it only took one. AR's really won't seem underpowered once everyone starts noob tubing. Get your flak jackets ready, it's only a matter of time.

                              • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                                That is EXACTLY the problem I have with this game.


                                Want to use the SVU?

                                Sit in a corner and ADS and spam the trigger.


                                DO NOT walk around and use it as a marksman rifle.

                                DO NOT try to take the objectives, using the skill of aiming and firing two rapid shots into an enemy's chest -- an enemy that has every advantage over you even if you had a 0.30 ADS time for your SVU.

                                (SWAT556 with quickdraw would've killed you before you had fully aimed down the sights if you and the SWAT556 user aimed down the sights at the same time at one another; 0.15 seconds: Fully aimed down the sights and the first shot fired, 0.22 seconds: Second shot fired, 0.29 seconds: You are dead -- and you're almost scoped in ready for the first of your two shots needed for the kill)


                                SWAT556 time to aim down sights: 0.25 seconds

                                SWAT556 time to aim down sights with quickdraw handle: ~0.13 seconds

                                SVU time to aim down sights: 0.42 seconds


                                SWAT556 time to kill: 0.14 seconds

                                SVU time to kill: 0.17 seconds


                                The BEST fix available would be to simply make the quickdraw handle a 0.8 or 0.75x ADS modifier, and give it to the SVU as well:
                                ARs at 0.8x = 0.20 seconds ADS -- still a very respectable advantage.

                                SVU at 0.8x = 0.34 seconds ADS -- still uselessly slow for competing against assault rifles on short range, but at the very least less useless.


                                0.75 would be nice too: ARs = 0.185 seconds ADS, SMGs 0.165 ADS and the SVU 0.315 seconds -- still ALWAYS losing to every AR with and without quickdraw on short and medium range, and every sniper rifle on long range.


                                Alternatively, just make the SVU 0.35 seconds ADS instead of 0.42 seconds -- like the Dragunov with ACOG.


                                I can promise the developers that the rifle still won't be use even with this suggested buff, and will remain the least used sniper rifle -- like with the Dragunov in Black Ops 1.

                                Like they obviously intended (why else remake the rifle, still useless?)

                              • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                                My freind, the scar h has ben buffed. I acually called activision support about the minimal damage. 6 days later they put the minimal damage from 24 to 25. GREAT SUCCESS.

                                • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                                  I disagree. Instead of looking at numbers spend some time leveling these weapons up. The scar and every other AR is fine. Once leveled up to so that I can put silencer and stock on I sh*t on all the smg users.

                                  • Re: How to buff the underpowered guns!

                                    If you think the svu is UP then you clearly do not know how to use it correctly. It was the first gun I got gold cammos with, back within the first month of playing the game. It is extremely effective when used correctly. In fact it is better than the DSR or the XPR or the Balista for ease of use and getting kills with it.


                                    I can easily use the SVU and snipe across the maps on Drone and Carrier and Aftermath or any mape that has long range sights and get kills quickly with it.


                                    The fact that it can only get headshots is becasue of how effective it really is. If it had more one shot kill spots the gun would be the most powerful sniper in the game. It's slow ads is not even an issue. If you are trying to get close to people with it that is your problem. When used correctly at longer ranges it can be spammed fast enough that not even the FAL compares to it.