25 Replies Latest reply: Jul 18, 2013 5:48 AM by Izjar11 Branched to a new discussion. RSS

Why diversity will always fail

ghamorra

If there's anything I've learned over the past couple years it's that any form of diversity will always fail. It doesn't matter if it's Sony vs Xbox, Zimmerman vs State of Florida, or Less Filling vs Great Taste. People will go out of their way and manipulate anything they can to make their perspective seem superior. In the end the true purpose will be distorted if not lost in translation.

 

Present a good argument as to why a popular concept might be flawed and fanboys will unite and present irrelevant facts as to why you're stupid, wrong, and suck at life without giving so much as a constructive criticism to anything you present.

 

CoD being so popular will fall victim to this kind of banter for as long as it's being made. Call of Duty has done a great job at generating a very diverse community. We have several titles that evolved many different playstyles. However, Call of Duty has only given strong consideration to certain styles leaving the rest to evolve within themselves to survive.

 

With each passing title the sub-playstyles are dividing more and more. Before we just had people playing the game for fun. Their playstyles focused on doing such and the diversity didn't exist because diversity was in every player. Since then we have built a taxonomic rank (bet this is the first time anyone's used that phrase on these boards) inside Call of Duty itself.

 

This leaves us with a very interest situation. We have all these "species" of players to consider when we discuss the nature of the game. We have the Rusher, Camper, Quickscoper, Killwhore, Knives Only, ect. Therefore when games are released certain elements are put into the game for these types of players.

 

Camping and Rushing two very different styles of plays, infact they are considered opposites. So one element that may support Camping contradicts Rushing and Rushers aren't pleased. The converse can be said as well. We all know the battle, we live it on the boards everyday.

 

What makes this even more interesting is when titles like Black Ops II emerge. To say this title wasn't built around Rushers is a bit ignorant, just a bit. What we saw here is the evolution between the Camper adapting to a Rushing environment and the Rushing Genus split into Rushing extremist and traditional Rushers. So in the attempt to cater towards one specific style of play we infact redefine what it meant for the opposite playstyle.

 

For instance, Camping in Black Ops could be defined as sitting in one spot for a majority of a match. In Black Ops II, a game developed intensely around the prevention of Camping (defined by Black Ops standards) we see players focusing more on Rushing, but in doing so there becomes a level of tolerance to style. Players develop new meaning for what it is to Camp. Now Camping is considered staying in the same area for a given amount of time.

 

If you got lost in that last paragraph, good, because this is exactly the problem.

 

TL;DR

 

Call of Duty has evolved several playstyles each contradicting the other. In the end we're stuck with a problem as one playstyle must suffer to allow the other to exist. It's a vicious circle and it's causing a tear in the community. Co-existence of playstyles is starting fail.

 

Don't believe me? Go to the Call of Duty Ghosts forum and read a suggestions made by one community member. See the extreme views made on each suggestion. Civility is falling apart and I believe it might accelerate the downfall of Call of Duty.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    Im_not_BukLau

    ghamorra wrote:

     

    Players develop new meaning for what it is to Camp. Now Camping is considered staying in the same area for a given amount of time.

     

    I don't think that's the case. Most people still generally consider camping to be a person who sits in a corner or behind a headglitch spot for extended periods of time.

     

     

    ghamorra wrote:

     

    Co-existence of playstyles is starting fail.

     

    I think you're being a bit over dramatic. BO2 is a game full of diverse playstyles. There are plenty of campers, rushers, QSers, knifers, 'worms' (taking camping to a whole new level). The weapon diversity is pretty good, there is not one or two guns that just dominate like the MP40 or Famas and for the first time we are seeing LMGs being used regulary. Of course BO2 was a game built around more aggressive playstyles but imo it is probably the most diverse CoD made by Trey.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    eRr0R_6_

    Id agree, i think it the term CAMPing has really become a  taboo word. and has expanded to not just sitting in a corner and ADS'ing, but playing defense and moving from choke point to choke point.. This is my play style so therefore i get alot of crap from the extremist rushers.. if you arent running around with your head cut off in a  map, then youre "playing wrong"

     

    this isnt gonna change.. its gonna get worse

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    phxs72

    I don't think that the CoD society of playstyles is falling but it is more difficult for all playstyles than it has ever been.  Yes, BO2 is built for fast paced action which should favor the rusher but it also has more headglitching spots than any CoD in my memory (I only go back to BO1) and that favors the camper.  The knife got nerfed so the knife only guys are also having to adapt.  I'd say that only the QSers got it easier this time around.  Granter there is no quickdraw perk in BO2 but the relative steadiness of the rifles makes up for that.  Heck even I can QS and I never did it before.

     

    Back to the two major groups of campers and rushers.  Campers can no longer sit in a corner and be as successful as they were in the past.  They have to patrole and area now.  In truth, the area patrole method has always been superior in effectiveness and this change has forced campers to grow that weren't already doing so.  Rushers can no longer run out into the open and expect to do as well as they did in previous titles due to the inordinate amount of headglitch spots.  This has forced rushers to hung walls and corners tighter and use cover more.  Which btw has always been the better way to rush but it wasn't always a necessity.

     

    I think that the reason all this growth in playstyle has brought about more extreme views from various forumites is that change is often unwanted and uncomfortable.  The more difficult the game makes it for a person to use their playstyle of choice the more they are likely to rail against the playstyles that counter them.  I think that those of us that utilize an amalgam of playstyles have felt the pain of change the least but even we have found it difficult to adapt considering that the enemy team is much more savy in their approaches nowadays and as such we have to be that much tighter in our gameplay to compensate.

     

    What we don't have anymore that many of us are quite used to is a relaxing set of maps where things aren't pushing full tilt all the time.  I think that they should bring that back as much as I used to hate the really big maps simply because I spent more time running back to the action than I did in it.  We all love fast paced action but too much of a good thing can turn itself into a bad thing.  Hopefully Ghosts will find a better balance in mapsize/layout.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    vince217

    dude, i think you think too much.

     

    but since we're trying to relate playstyles to biology... how about the theory of evolution?

     

    of course people will evolve their playstyles to fit both the way they approach the game and the way the game is presented to them.  the way i play COD has changed greatly since I first picked up a controller and played the game.  the way i play COD changes depending on the game mode.

     

    the players that complain about other players style of play are the ones who cannot / dont evolve.  therefore they get disgusted with the game and quit, instead of evolving.  these are the ones who have consistently said that the previous release was better, not realizing that they have to change the way they play  to fit the environment (lag notwithstanding).

     

    the best players are the ones that have evolved with each iteration of the game and have been able to use and in some cases exploit the small advantages that they have found.

     

    in short: evolution is great.  who cares what class / sub-class you get 'lumped' into or how playstyles have changed. adapt and conquer.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    jeepchick

    I disagree. The key is to have those different playstyles work together. I'm a RunNGunner, my husband is a Dirty Camping Sniper (I kid, he tactically moves around an area with good lines of sight) - we make a great team. I pull them out into the open and cap objectives, he pops heads and calls out charlies in my sector.

     

    The team I work on (real job) in similar. We all have something we specialize in, so that when an issue pops up we can forward it to the appropriate person and support them while they work on it.

     

    IMHO, diversity works. Having everyone play the same, with the same set ups/loadouts, would make for a very boring game experience.

     

    - Claire

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      ghamorra

      jeepchick wrote:

       

      I disagree. The key is to have those different playstyles work together. I'm a RunNGunner, my husband is a Dirty Camping Sniper (I kid, he tactically moves around an area with good lines of sight) - we make a great team.

       

      IMHO, diversity works. Having everyone play the same, with the same set ups/loadouts, would make for a very boring game experience.

       

      - Claire

      Diversity works for you because of who you play with. When inside groups things are different. Look at professional sports teams and how several different races and ethnicity work together. If you open your sight to the general public you get very different reactions.

       

      I think you make a great point though. When you do play in groups polarized styles of play magically become harmonous (spelling?) and work very well. However, when players of different sorts who don't know each other get together it never seems to work.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    Izjar11

    Alright G' lets take a look at what you are saying here:

     

    any form of diversity will always fail.

    Not sure what to think here.

     

    People will go out of their way and manipulate anything they can to make their perspective seem superior. In the end the true purpose will be distorted if not lost in translation.

    Well a persons concious (if this is where your going) will vary from the next, we all see what we (only) want to see and believe.

     

    Present a good argument as to why a popular concept might be flawed and fanboys will unite and present irrelevant facts as to why you're stupid, wrong, and suck at life without giving so much as a constructive criticism to anything you present.

    Well if the majority find something good, than yea the ones who counter it will be bashed, we all do this.

     

    Call of Duty has only given strong consideration to certain styles leaving the rest to evolve within themselves to survive.

    This is a runner / camper thing? I borderline both worlds when needed this game has suited that the most for me.

     

    With each passing title the sub-playstyles are dividing more and more. Before we just had people playing the game for fun. Their playstyles focused on doing such and the diversity didn't exist because diversity was in every player. Since then we have built a taxonomic rank (bet this is the first time anyone's used that phrase on these boards) inside Call of Duty itself.

     

    Well as anything, this game has evolved and moved past those "simpler" times. That is not bad, its simply changing. Its like our grandparents never will appreciate "todays" music because they are stuck in a what it was like mentality <useless and old<>

     

    We have the Rusher, Camper, Quickscoper, Killwhore, Knives Only, ect

     

    What you speak of are names people have just associated others with in an attempt to understand what they are doing. Players than, based on the word they associate others with will provide their opinion on which is best when truly none is best.

     

    For instance, Camping in Black Ops could be defined as sitting in one spot for a majority of a match. In Black Ops II, a game developed intensely around the prevention of Camping (defined by Black Ops standards) we see players focusing more on Rushing, but in doing so there becomes a level of tolerance to style. Players develop new meaning for what it is to Camp. Now Camping is considered staying in the same area for a given amount of time.

    hmmm your saying what happened in BO is happening in BO2. Sure.

     

    In the end we're stuck with a problem as one playstyle must suffer to allow the other to exist. It's a vicious circle and it's causing a tear in the community. Co-existence of playstyles is starting fail.

    G' no offense but what? Since when did playstyle actual fail as a community? Its the individual who uses such style in a weaker way fails. I've encountered strong and weak rushers, weak campers and good campers, and all of the in between's.

     

    I think if your point is to identify the fall of this game, as I have said, as Drew has said its the community itself (which is what your ultimatly repeating) its the user and each users way of playing the game. As each day passes less people are playing, less NOobs, less casual dudes your are facing more experienced, better prepared and smarter opponents than before.

     

    If anything variety will save this game, as opposed to focusing only on rushing. Rushing is good, but it is the easiest form to counter after all.

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      Im_not_BukLau

      Izjar11 wrote:

       

       

      Well as anything, this game has evolved and moved past those "simpler" times. That is not bad, its simply changing. Its like our grandparents never will appreciate "todays" music because they are stuck in a what it was like mentality <useless and old<>

      I think people's playstyles have definately evolved in BO2. Campers are now utilising headglitch spots with LMGs rather the sitting in corners with silenced Assault Rifles and stealth perks. Rushers are also utilising more cover and flank routes rather then blindly rushing into the middle of the map. Obviously there are still people trying to play this game like they tried to play an older CoD but these people generally get stomped. BO2 is played in a very different way to any other CoD, campers can't hide forever due to the Ghost nerf and the spawn flips (the spawn flips mainly apply to TDM and KC) and Rushers can't blindly run everywhere expecting to get a decent score.

      • Re: Why diversity will always fail
        Izjar11

        this is the one thing I learned from BO2 it plays (moves) so much differently than previous titles that relying on what use to happen is a big error.

         

        • Re: Why diversity will always fail
          Im_not_BukLau

          Yeah I've definately noticed a change in my gameplay. In older CoDs I was very aggressive but in BO2 I've slowed things down, now I'm more mindful of headglitch spots where as in previous CoDs it was the corners you had to pay attention to.

           

          I wish Trey would have done something about some of the randomness and BS because I like the way BO2 plays and when it plays well (and the lobby aren't playing like douchebags) BO2 is one of the more skill based and competative CoDs but the randomness can make it so frustrating.

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      ghamorra

      Izjar11 wrote:

       

      no offense but what? Since when did playstyle actual fail as a community? Its the individual who uses such style in a weaker way fails. I've encountered strong and weak rushers, weak campers and good campers, and all of the in between's.

      It's not the playstyle, it's the community's constant desire to support only their playstyle. In an attempt to do this, the developers have ironically created more playstyles (see my evolution example). Now that there's more playstyles there are more bias views to consider and as the developers try to cater to those views the playstyles evolve further and the developer can't keep up ultimately leading to everyone being infinitely dissatisfied.

      • Re: Why diversity will always fail
        Izjar11

        ghamorra wrote:

         

        Izjar11 wrote:

         

        no offense but what? Since when did playstyle actual fail as a community? Its the individual who uses such style in a weaker way fails. I've encountered strong and weak rushers, weak campers and good campers, and all of the in between's.

        It's not the playstyle, it's the community's constant desire to support only their playstyle. In an attempt to do this, the developers have ironically created more playstyles (see my evolution example). Now that there's more playstyles there are more bias views to consider and as the developers try to cater to those views the playstyles evolve further and the developer can't keep up ultimately leading to everyone being infinitely dissatisfied.

        People in my view whom are mostly dissatisfied are simply because they wanted something that was not delivered to them in this game, happened in BO, happened in MW3. I really believe G' players from previous titles get stuck on that one (first) title they play and believe or convince themselves every new title should be modeled after their first one.

         

        BO2 is (to me) the most balanced game, at the same time because its so competitive (much more than before) it creates many frustrations amongst players who have no learned that first its A) Frustrating, B) rewarding when played well

         

        I also stand by "its the community" stance, we are responsible for our online interactions and our own frustrations. Thanks for clarifying I understand what your saying better.

        • Re: Why diversity will always fail
          TRU11

          Izjar11 wrote:

           

          ghamorra wrote:

           

          Izjar11 wrote:

           

          no offense but what? Since when did playstyle actual fail as a community? Its the individual who uses such style in a weaker way fails. I've encountered strong and weak rushers, weak campers and good campers, and all of the in between's.

          It's not the playstyle, it's the community's constant desire to support only their playstyle. In an attempt to do this, the developers have ironically created more playstyles (see my evolution example). Now that there's more playstyles there are more bias views to consider and as the developers try to cater to those views the playstyles evolve further and the developer can't keep up ultimately leading to everyone being infinitely dissatisfied.

          People in my view whom are mostly dissatisfied are simply because they wanted something that was not delivered to them in this game, happened in BO, happened in MW3. I really believe G' players from previous titles get stuck on that one (first) title they play and believe or convince themselves every new title should be modeled after their first one.

           

          BO2 is (to me) the most balanced game, at the same time because its so competitive (much more than before) it creates many frustrations amongst players who have no learned that first its A) Frustrating, B) rewarding when played well

           

          I also stand by "its the community" stance, we are responsible for our online interactions and our own frustrations. Thanks for clarifying I understand what your saying better.

           

          maybe you are just lucky but i often get stuck with godaweful connenctions where im clearly a second behind my opponents.

          i can compensate for it a lil bit but where your stuck with a crappy team then it gets frustrated.

           

          as someone who played earlier titles i at least expect the connection to be up to pair or better lol.

          to me it gotten worse.

           

          only thing i really compain about though.

          everything else i could care less.

          • Re: Why diversity will always fail
            Izjar11

            No TRU I deal with every issue imaginable, every one that you deal with that the next guy complaining deals with. I am no different.

             

            I agree the connection should be better as these games progress but I also know that there is not magical solution to balance the different connection speeds, different Internet ports and different issues bogging down a particular connection (high activity, poor or improper connection by the provider) simply there are many factors that go into place when we connect online.

             

            When I get placed in a very "laggy" game I severely slow down and move within a a specific area to minimize deaths.

            • Re: Why diversity will always fail
              ghamorra

              Ego,

               

              I understand what you mean when you say that everyone deals with lag issues and thus we should learn to adapt. But you can only put up with so much. I good example was yesterday against a group of kids who Drew, Tom, and I beat one match then the next we could even walk through doors.

               

              Lag can be so influencial, more so than I think you give it credit for. This game was so bad that the the SWARM a kid got would target and come down on us but disappear before it could explode. It was kind of funny but at the same time is was proof that the game wasn't even close to balanced.

               

              I recall shooting a full clip into a guy but had to reload, during that process he turned and dropped me instantly. You know the stories, you've heard them hundreds of times. Some lag can be played around, but not all cases are so. Some games lag is impossible.

              • Re: Why diversity will always fail
                Izjar11

                G,

                 

                I think I played one particular match (with D) where the entire game was played frame by frame it was stop and go (the most latency played game) I've ever dealt with and magically we won that game.

                 

                Lag is there, I just do not see the dev's or any game creator fixing it to our liking.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    Yppecaye_the_Dogged

    ghamorra wrote:

     

    If there's anything I've learned over the past couple years it's that any form of diversity will always fail.  (emphasis mine.)

    I'm curious as to what particular experiences you had in the last few years which compelled you to make such a categorical and blanket statement. 

     

    What if I told you that diversity in a gene pool is the most effective way to keep a biological species most prepared to adapt to its environment.  Would you still say diversity will always fail. 

     

    What if I told you that one of the underlying justifications of the First Amendment is that the Founding Fathers knew that only through a diversity of voices, a free exchange of ideas, will democracy and free enterprise thrive.  (How can there be competition if there is no diversity.)

     

    The virtues of diversity are too many to name. 

     

    Less Filling vs Great Taste.

    Huh?   Is this made up advertising catchphrase really relevant to the concept of diversity, especially when we all know Miller meant its beer as both less filling as well as tasting great.

    Zimmerman vs State of Florida

    It's actually State of Florida v. Zimmerman.  The State/Plaintiff always go before the Defendant because it's the State/Plaintiff doing the accusing. 

     

    Since you brought it into discussion, I'm curious on what you think about it. 

    Call of Duty has evolved several playstyles each contradicting the other. In the end we're stuck with a problem as one playstyle must suffer to allow the other to exist.

    Diversity of playstyles is what makes the game better.  Not worse.  Some playstyles may be more annoying than others.  But, then, that's only because I play a certain way and certain other styles tend to hinder my play.  Isn't it? 

     

    Don't know about what your particular playstyle is.  But wouldn't it be a pretty boring game if everyone played like you? 

     

    The only playstyle that will suffer is the weaker one, unable to adapt to superior styles, whatever they may be. 

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      ghamorra

      Yppecaye_the_Dogged wrote:

       

      Diversity of playstyles is what makes the game better.  Not worse.  Some playstyles may be more annoying than others.  But, then, that's only because I play a certain way and certain other styles tend to hinder my play.  Isn't it? 

       

      Don't know about what your particular playstyle is.  But wouldn't it be a pretty boring game if everyone played like you?

      I do not disagree with any of this. If you continue to read you'll see where I was going. I know it's long and some thoughts may seem out there, but in the end I explain how I feel diversity in Call of Duty is not accepted and each style of play will inherently be bias and unwilling to awknowledge the other styles of play.

       

      You can go to the Ghost boards and see just how unaccepting the community is of other playstyles. It goes beyond friendly and mature disagreement and goes into pretty immature spats and conflicts. The franchise will continue to evolve into various different styles of play and in doing so the conflict between these playstyles will just get worse.

       

      As far as my references in the beginning I was just showing popular examples of how diversity fails to get along in various categories. When it comes to personal preferences I have my opinions but I rather enjoy those that don't agree with me as you said:

      Yppecaye_the_Dogged wrote:

       

      What if I told you that diversity in a gene pool is the most effective way to keep a biological species most prepared to adapt to its environment.  Would you still say diversity will always fail.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    FpsRockstar

    This is somewhat true IMO, however diversity is what makes literaly EVERYTHING work. For every action there is an equal and oppisite reaction. For every rusher there's a camper, however broad this statement is, it's still inevitibly mostly true.

     

    If you used the COD community as a focus group and asked what style of play they prefered, you would get a general idea that nobody really likes anything! For example you could say MOST people like to camp but most is only about 10% because almost nobody does the exact same thing in EVERY game.

     

    My point is this, if everybody had one single playstyle, (camper rusher knifer QSer ect) then this game simply would not work.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    sennalike

    For me diversity is the sole reason players come back time and time again to CoD.

     

    But I am talking about a different kind of diversity. Not the diversity in players play styles, but the diversity within a player. If you want to enjoy and continue to do well at CoD you need to have the ability to adapt your play style, and be diverse. The majority of complainers I see on these forums are from those who can't or refuse to do this.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    Alky6

    I think a lot of the play style adjustments are because of the smaller maps and the engineering that's gone into them. No matter where you are, you can be seen from somewhere. That means the campers can't camp in the strict sense of the word and rushers can't rush effectively without being on display. So everyone has adjust there play style or... diversify.

  • Re: Why diversity will always fail
    xDBL28x

    It's not diversity that is the problem. You are more speaking to mob mentality and immaturity/inability to form opinions.

     

    [REMOVED BY MODERATOR]

     

    Point of that story is that it's not the diversity that's the problem. The problem is the diversity of opinions, the inability for many to form their own and the inability of people to accept their way isn't the only way

     

    Message was edited by: jeepchick - removed Name & Shame reference.

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      jeepchick

      You are welcome to provide examples to enhance your discussion points, but let's avoid naming individuals. Keep it generic if you would.

       

      Thanks,

      Claire JeepChick | Forum Moderator: Modern Warfare, Black Ops, Ghosts
      Questions/Concerns/Quibbles/Comments? Send me a PM

    • Re: Why diversity will always fail
      ghamorra

      I'm assuming you were talking about a YouTuber, they're pretty much the plague of Call of Duty and I really think Activision should work on ways to combat that disease

      • Re: Why diversity will always fail
        xDBL28x

        I was talking about two YouTubers having a twitter beef. Fans of player A would tweet player B mimicking what player A was saying just buying into mob mentality. Fans of player B would do the same.

         

        That is a perfect example of the problem with the diversity in the CoD community. Its not the fact that diversity is present, its the fact that people blindly buy into others points of view and are incapable of making their own or realizing that different opinions than their own can coexist.

         

        I don't think the YouTubers are the problem its the small impressionable children that watch them. Instead of combating the youtubers, combat the underage kids playing this game