41 Replies Latest reply: Jul 8, 2013 10:27 PM by theroc23 RSS

This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play

ghamorra

Today I found myself with teams full of kids who rushed around the map endlessly trying to catch the enemy team in their spawn. Nonstop all over the place and they weren't even doing well. The gamemode was TDM so there really wasn't any kind of organization in the flow of the match, it was just kind of everywhere.

 

Certain type of players don't really think much about what they're doing, they see the scorecard at the end of the match and see a decent K/D and think, "I did good, my team was terrible and that's why we lost". Sure at first glance this may seem like a valid point, but I've been paying close attention lately wondering how this game can be so chaotic one match and perfectly clam the next, and what I found is the attitude of the players.

 

What players don't realize is how their style of play on these very small maps influence the spawn points. At the start of the match what's the first thing you do in TDM? You sprint to the middle of that intial first clash.

 

And what happens if you win that first encounter? You push on into the enemy spawn to kill of the ones you just defeated for a second time. What you don't realize is what you just did. Once you break into the enemy spawn the spawn flips and now you have guys spawning behind you.

 

It might seem pretty simple, you run back and forth between ends of the map, but there's a problem with this. Not everyone moves at the same speed. Some players my not like a full on fast paced game, some players might take a different route or backtrack never truly moving forward. In the end the team spreads out and what happens to the spawns? They become irradict.

 

You end up with 6 players at different corners of the map and the enemy team doesn't really have a say in where they spawn. They spawn separate from each other and it's at this point that chaos breaks out. Both teams are now faced with uncomfortable gunfights where the enemy is on every side. In the end the winner is whoever can control the spawns better. It has nothing to do with skill, not amount of gun handling can protect you from getting shot in the back by someone who just spawned, or by someone who watched you spawn, it's really just luck.

 

There's an attitude developing where the community isn't looking to get into gunfights, they're looking for easy kills and what's easier than running into a spawn and catching your opponent apparating. This is the casual issue, players wanting to get spawnkills. The game isn't designed to be played this way. Players don't want small maps because there's more action, that's just a ala cart benefit. Players want small maps because you can get easier kills on people who just spawned.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    Im_not_BukLau

    You bring up some valid points but this is really only a problem on Puketown and the 'Vahn Boyage' (I think that's whats on the back of the boat). These maps are tiny and Highjacked has those balconies overlooking the spawns on both sides of the map.

     

    I used to generally flank around low traffic routes but now I just play 'zone defense' around the middle of the map e.g. I'll patrol around the middle building on Snipeoff. If you stick around the middle the spawns aren't really a problem.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      ghamorra

      Im_not_BukLau wrote:

       

      I used to generally flank around low traffic routes but now I just play 'zone defense' around the middle of the map e.g. I'll patrol around the middle building on Snipeoff. If you stick around the middle the spawns aren't really a problem.

      Spawns are always a problem. It might not be noticeable on Killcam but if pay close attention you'll get ambushed from all sides. It's not from people who journey around the map, it's from people who spawn by the haystack, or by the barn, or the tractor.

       

      When I was playing Raid a little bit ago I spent the whole map spinning in circles fending off enemies from all directions. I couldn't believe how constant the flow was from all angles. It seemed that as soon as I killed one guy on my left two more where moving in on my right.

       

      My team was so spread out they flipped the spawns every 10 or 15 seconds. In the end we lost. Engaging one enemy meant out back was turned to another.

      • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
        Im_not_BukLau

        The spawns are definately always a problem. Go into codcaster mode in theatre and choose the option where it is a top down view and players are represented by triangles, it demonstrates just how bad the spawns are. Staying around the middle of the map (at least in my opinion) makes these bad spawns less noticable and gives you a chance to survive.

         

        I've been playing FFA recently and I always use bettys not to camp but to cover flank routes and ares close to the spawns and if the bettys don't get a kill they alert me and buy me some time. I think I might start using BB and claymores more in TDM as well.

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          ghamorra

          I find the game more enjoyable when my team moves less. It gives me time to think and engage the enemy in a more careful way. I when more matches and from the looks of things my team seems to do much better as well.

           

          There's been such a strong push to make this game faster and centered around the rushing style of play, but it seems that most of the problems everyone complains about it because of this push. A true paradox in wants by the community

          • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
            Im_not_BukLau

            I don't think the 'push towards rushing' is the cause of this games problems, it is the maps.

             

            A lot of the weapons would balance themselves out better if the maps were larger. The spawns would also improve if the maps were larger.

             

            The headglitching is rampant in this game. I have no problem with Treyarch wanting to make cover a more important aspect of the game but doing it through adding headglitch spots everywhere is not the way to do it.

             

            There are other things but we all know the problem with the maps.

             

            These maps might be good for competitive play but Treyarch needs to realise that pub matches and competitive aren't played the same way and no matter how hard they push this 'e-sports' agenda they never will.

            • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
              ghamorra

              But why are the maps so much smaller? Trey wouldn't have done this unless there was some kind of push from the community. Why would the community want the maps to be smaller? It fits their needs more. Trey is to blame for carrying out the community's wishes, but in the the end the community is at fault for it happening in the first place

              • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
                TopAceH3X

                I can say that smaller map would have been nice,but this is crazy. They need to follow MW2 map designs and learn a thing or two

                • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
                  redx165

                  What COD needs to do is with NEXT GEN coming out make PS4 and Xbox One 12v12 lobbies or 16v16 lobbies. If they continue with 6v6 then COD is dead to BF4 with it's 32v32 1080p 60FPS. Next step for COD is to REWARD the players that play the game ( Rushers ) and give them some benfits. More xp for a example. Step after that is make sure the HOST is always a head of everyone else.     ( MW2 style ) Next step is to make a better balancing game. I don't want a respond from the COD fanboys up in here cause they will defend this game for all it's broken things in it. Pistols should be like Black Ops 1, Shotguns should be nerf to a more powerful Black ops 1, ALL snipers should be bolt action and take a while to scope down the sight. Assault Rifles should be the best all around gun but beaten by SMG's and Shotguns at close while getting beat by LMG's and Snipers and long range. Now lets get to target finders. There should be nothing to help new players. NOTHING

                   

                  With these simple things COD will be saved.

                   

                  ~THE NOOB KILLER

                • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
                  Dr_QuiCKScOP3r

                  Just wait for BO3. If BO2 had a 3-lane (left, right, and center) map design, BO3 will only have 2.

                • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
                  Im_not_BukLau

                  I think MW2 got it right.

                   

                  It had large maps but it also had Marathon for players who wanted to stay in the action. Marathon was perfectly balanced within its tier (you had to make real sacrafices for it). Extreme Conditioning has been a joke and it can't compete with other perks in MW3 and BO2.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    rlbl

    As much as I think a lot of people playing objective games should be playing TDM...

     

    A lot of people playing TDM should be playing FFA.

     

    The concept of "team" is lost on some poeple.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    TRU11

    its partly a community issue but the biggest blame is the game itself.

     

    the game makes this possible by the way its programmed.

     

    maps are small.

    player movement speed is at an unrealistic pace.

    aim assist makes aiming a disatvantage in most gun fights.

    attachments that encourage hip fire.

    weapons that can be used outside of their intended capabilities.

     

    but most important : streaks that can turn a single player into an 1 man army rendering team mates useless.

     

    only reason i play this game is because i can win a game by myself.

    BF you have no chance and the community there is even more retarded IMO.

    MAG to bad is outdated and most of its community moved on like myself.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      NHAngler

      Great points.

       

      IMHO, MAG was the best FPS out there.  Up tp 164 players at a time, very good weapon balancing and dedicated servers.  They also had weapons added with the DLC's.

       

      It is outdated and nobody plays it anymore, but it was my favorite FPS so far.

      • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
        TRU11

        i played the biggest mode with 256 players on 1 map at 1 time .

         

        it was freakin awesome how they build that mode up.

         

        first every team starts outside and the better you play the more you can press the opponent back till it became so chaotic with 256 players in a small area.

         

        also there are no perks and streaks so loadout and skills dictated the match ups.

        but in the end it was all about teamwork and following orders with commanders who knew what they where doing.

         

        best game i played in terms of teamplay and organised chaos.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    Izjar11

    Of course its the community G, i've known this for a while now.

     

    There are two things that happen though when you dont push forward (to far):

    A) Enemy begins to slow down as well, and everyone begins to call each other campers

     

    B) Revenge spawn system kicks in and they begin to spawn behind you nearby.

     

    In TDM you dont have to push the spawns to do well, hold an area for a small amount of time (preferably with someone else) and slowly move forward. But generally speaking what you describe is what happens allot in the game.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    FpsRockstar

    In my opinion this is a fairly simple problem to overcome. The fact of the matter is, everyone has a different play style. Some like to sit in a window with a target finder LMG (call it camping or don't i'm not here to judge), while others prefer a more fast paced game. What you need to remember though is variables, in order to hold a certain spawn point you need a strong team presence, and an absense of enemies in that particular area. For example if you go on Hijacked and two of you sit in the very back of the yacht this will anchor the spawn, however you will only kill the enemies that flank around the other four people on your team that pushed forward. This will get boring, so you move up into the control room and overlook the main deck. Your team then overruns the enemy spawn causing it to flip and you get rushed from behind. Rinse and repeat. Basicaly the only way to maintain spawns reliably is to have very extensive knowledge of where all the spawns are, and where to go depending on how you're playing. Most maps have at least two general spawns for each side. Learn where these are so that you know where the enemies are by where the majority of your team is. In some cases spawns will split and simultaniously spawn enemies on both sides of the map, this will mostly occur simply because the game can't decide which side is farther than the other from the majority of your team. Just remember the AI will try to spawn enemies as far away from you as possible, so if two or three people occupy one area for an entire match it's likely that the game will continue to spawn their teamates at the closest avaliable position.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      ghamorra

      Just a helpful tip, try breaking your thoughts into paragraphs that are 2-3 sentences long.

       

      It's not so much rushing as it is rushing spawns. This principle of spawnkilling because those kills are the easiest is causing a lot of effects that hurt the team as a whole

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      Yppecaye_the_Dogged

      FpsRockstar wrote:


      ...Learn where these are so that you know where the enemies are by where the majority of your team is.

       

      ...Just remember the AI will try to spawn enemies as far away from you as possible, so if two or three people occupy one area for an entire match it's likely that the game will continue to spawn their teamates at the closest avaliable position.

      You hit the nail on the head.  It's all about anticipation based on your team's, your enemies and most importanly, your own map location.  No one can get it right all the time because TDM spawns are going to be as volitie as the players described by the OP.  But it's all about where you place yourself relative to your teammates, whether they're rushing or camping or something in between.

       

      Otherwise, an enemy just might spawn right behind you.   

      For example if you go on Hijacked and two of you sit in the very back of the yacht this will anchor the spawn...

      This situation is actually quite annoying to me.  In these small maps, there's value in swapping the spawn.  If you have enemie campers dug in the laundry's end of Slums, for example, having a clueless anchor on the other side will only make it harder for you to clear that area because:  1)  enenmy will just respawn at or near the laundry room; and, 2. if you die, you'd be sent all the way back to where the anchor is and you'll have to traverse the whole map again. 

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    zombie_BATMAN

    you got love it when you go to throw a care package and some d-bag on your team trys to flip the spawns on purpose. i dont even bother to throw them anymore because im instantly surrounded by at least 3 enemies.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    zombie_BATMAN

    you got love it when you go to throw a care package and some d-bag on your team trys to flip the spawns on purpose. i dont even bother to throw them anymore because im instantly surrounded by at least 3 enemies.

     

    and thats if your own teammates dont steal your care package or depending on which game mode, shoot you to get to the care package.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    I_Am_Overpowered

    So now where complaining teams rush? Lmao I'm sorry not everyone wants or needs to  camp for 10+ mins in beginning of every match to figure out what to do.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      ghamorra

      You're an idiot. I'm not complaining about rushing, please read this again.

      • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
        I_Am_Overpowered

        Today I found myself with teams full of kids who rushed around the map endlessly trying to catch the enemy team in their spawn. Nonstop all over the place and they weren't even doing well. The gamemode was TDM so there really wasn't any kind of organization in the flow of the match, it was just kind of everywhere.-    Then you continue to complain how rushing flips spawns etc so dont call anyone a idiot when your the dumbass camping & getting spawned behind. How many months into this game and players still cant recognize a spawn flip? Lmao

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          Dr_QuiCKScOP3r

          In TDM, the bad rushers are your downfall. I had a team mate who wasted my good effort by posting a 1-19. He was rushing like a headless chicken and he have no clue on what to do.

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          Yppecaye_the_Dogged

          I_Am_Overpowered wrote:

           

          ...Lmao

          You know it's one thing to disagree with what the OP is trying to say.  It's another to disagree with it and not having anything constructive to say yourself. 

           

          Whether you agree, the OP is an interesting subject.  Read some of the posts here that disagree with the OP and learn how to disagree without sounding like a malcontent.

           

          Unless, of course, that's the impression you're trying to put out. 

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          ghamorra

          I_Am_Overpowered wrote:

           

          dont call anyone a idiot when your the dumbass camping & getting spawned behind. How many months into this game and players still cant recognize a spawn flip? Lmao

          How do you know I'm camping (I wasn't camping infact)? How do you know I can't recognize a spawn flip (I clearly show in my post how I'm always able to recognize a spawn flip)? It seems to me you're reading comprehension is that of a child because you missed every point I made. I suggest you understand the premise of this post before you continue to post irrelevant ideas that make you sound like an idiot

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    Adam1234567893

    What they need to do is stop catering to ALL play styles no play style is better then the other so none of the perks and equipment and weapons need to be catering to any of them, noobs shouldn't be helped or catered to either I had to learn how to play in MW2 so new players need to learn how to play too rather then have everything handed that's what ruins games. Balance play styles instead of guns. The maps need to be MW2 sized and Extreme Conditioning should give you infinite sprint that way people who rush or run and gun can stay in the action and actually have a chance against campers again. Campers need to be the last people you help or cater to seriously thats why MW3 went down hill so fast is because they only listened to garbage complainers which sadly they were campers.  They also need to remove aim assist from OHK guns and down the aim assist for all the other guns. I hope they go back to bigger maps because that's what made  the game fun because you didn't have only one path to take you could multiple paths and avoid campers. Nothing against campers that don't complain I am talking about the garbage exploiting campers who do nothing but complain until they are invincible. Treyarch listen to 100 percent of your community instead of only a select few.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    Erijian_Aruseus

    The above post I can somewhat agree with. Since I always play Solo most of the time, only going into parties when invited after a Domination game, I play by how my team plays. This isn't even in regard to if my team is good or bad, just if they try to play the objective or not. If my team is bad, but are trying to play the objective, I'll try my best to assist them with it either by pushing with my team to objectives, getting support-based scorestreaks like the UAV, CUAV, or VSAT, or by trying to capture an objective all on my own while no enemies are around.

     

    On the other hand, if my team has no intention of trying to play the objective whatsoever and ignore it, I'll do so as well. No matter what happens, I'll be taking a loss, so why not try to keep a nice score while taking the loss? These are the kinds of matches I hate being in, since the other team will constantly be calling in streaks it seems since playing the objective is worth more than killing in the objective-based game modes..

     

    What I find funniest, is when you have half of the team playing the objective and half of the team treating it like it's TDM. That's when the real frustration sets in for me.

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    Yppecaye_the_Dogged

    ghamorra wrote:

     

    The game mode was TDM so there really wasn't any kind of organization in the flow of the match, it was just kind of everywhere.

    Unless you're running with a party, this is the nature of TDM.  Everyone should be trying to maximize kills and minimize deaths. 

     

    What players don't realize is how their style of play on these very small maps influence the spawn points. At the start of the match what's the first thing you do in TDM? You sprint to the middle of that intial first clash.

     

    And what happens if you win that first encounter? You push on into the enemy spawn to kill of the ones you just defeated for a second time. What you don't realize is what you just did. Once you break into the enemy spawn the spawn flips and now you have guys spawning behind you.

    But what is the alternative on small maps?  It's either what you described above or both sides stay at their spawn.  If it's was the latter, then it's probably a camp fest. 

    You end up with 6 players at different corners of the map and the enemy team doesn't really have a say in where they spawn.

    It doen't have to be 6, does it.  You can be the 6th that's not running with the herd.  I often find it desireable that the rest of the team is rushing or located near the enemy spawn.  If I position myself right, and my teammates don't all get slaughtered and the spawn flips, I'm usually in a perfect place to wipe out 3-4 opponents looking for revenge.   

     

    Sounds like you have a certain style of play and those who tend to travel the map confuses the spawn for you.  Don't get me wrong,  I feel the same frustration sometimes.  Slums is another good example where spaws can swap unsuspectingly if you're not paying attention. 

     

    Point is, though, if you're playing with the kind of rushers like you described, you'll just have to adapt your game lest be left behind. 

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      ghamorra

      Rush all you want, I don't care because I understand that's the style of play. What my point and, which seems to be lost in translation in this thread, is the constant attack on spawns. You don't have to rush a spawn to rush in this game. Even Hijacked is big enough to where you can rush and still remain in control of the map. I know, I've done it several times.

       

      This idea that you have to kill the enemy in their spawn is causing huge issues and I think people are not seeing or understanding how their playstyle is causing this problem.

      • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
        Yppecaye_the_Dogged

        I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I get your point about rushing the spawn on one end of small maps flips it to the other end.  And, as a result, you have the potential of having eveybody everywhere. 

         

        But my point was more on how to deal with this situation.  Lets face it, if we're going solo, we're not going to have much say in how our teammates will play.  So, if they play that way, especially in TDM where there is no objective, we'll have be more aware of our own, our teammates' and enemie's locations to be better able to predice the spawn. 

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          ghamorra

          Adapting is important, but being able to adapt doesn't mean the problem still isn't there. The best way to adapt to rampant spawn flipping is to occupy a spawn point and focus your movement out from that point.

           

          However, certain maps only have limited choices, you occupy one spawn and it locks the other team to the other. Now you have spawn rushers repeatidly killing the other team as they spawn and there's no where else for them to go.

           

          It's one of those situations where the players are abusing an aspect of the game for their own selfish gain and not regarding the effects of their actions. This isn't about not being able to deal with the issue at hand. This is about the issue existing in the first place.

          • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
            Yppecaye_the_Dogged

            ghamorra wrote:

             

            It's one of those situations where the players are abusing an aspect of the game for their own selfish gain and not regarding the effects of their actions. This isn't about not being able to deal with the issue at hand. This is about the issue existing in the first place.

            Unfortunately that's the nature of small maps and why people, including myself, really dislike them.  Doesn't take much skill to do the "abuse" thing you described.  That said, that kind of play is what TDM is in small maps.  If some mad dasher ends up with a 28-5 game, most likely he achieved the object (not objective) of TDM games. 

             

            I know you see it as an issue, but I see it more as just a reality of TDM in small maps and small maps are what's really the problem. 

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    InstantOG

    Do I ruin the game if I play selfishly because my team is so bad that I can't count on them? Sometimes I feel these kids play with their brain behind a wall.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      rlbl

      Well the problem is: they may be thinking the same about you. (if you see what I am saying)

       

      When people play together and are not communicating (or understanding what the other is doing), everyone will think that the other is doing something wrong because they are not doing what the other is expecting them to do.

       

      (generally speaking, not directed at you or anyone): It is extremely arrogant of people when they say "I was playing with noob randoms who did not know what they were doing", without considering that the alleged bad players on your team are thinking the exact same thing about you.

       

       

      InstantOG wrote:

       

      Do I ruin the game if I play selfishly because my team is so bad that I can't count on them? Sometimes I feel these kids play with their brain behind a wall.

       

      So keeping that in mind, to answer this directly: Yes (or at least, maybe)

      • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
        phxs72

        It can be quite the humbling feeling when you finish a match thinking that you had nothing but scrubs for teamates only to realize that you yourself was the low man on the pole.  Sometimes ones style of play just doesn't work with others styles well and that can be quite frustrating.  I know I've been that low man before.  I'm sure that we all have somewhere along the way.

         

        To the OP, map control seems like a lost art in BO2 and it has from day one.  However, I go back to MW3 and while it flows better in general, there really isn't as much map control going on there either as I thought there was.  Which brings me to think that the spawn logic is more caotic in BO2.  Probably due to an attempt to reduce spawn trapping.  It didn't work if that was the intention but it did create a less controlled environment.  The number of times that I've found myself spawned behind enemy lines in BO2 is crazy.  More often than not it gets me killed but occasionally, it puts me in great position to wipeout 1/2 the enemy team before they even know that I'm there.  Of course, had the enemy team not pushed my teams spawn so deeply then I would have never spawned behind them.

        • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
          InstantOG

          It is a good feeling having carried the dead weight of the team and coming out on top, I usually am the best player on my team (not trying to brag) so I'm used to being captain tryhard and doing everything.

           

          On Map control I think that is a big problem with this game, on the MW2/MW3 you could generally guess where the other team was going to attack from and move accordingly but now I feel you have to basically guess and hope for the best, sometimes your enemy is in your spawn, above you, running behind your teammates or drop spawning on your location. The portable radar would be so much more useful with these bad spawns. I noticed that my teammates and enemies are so confused when they get shot from behind not because of dying but the fact that they were just killed from an area where nobody even belongs.

    • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
      Yppecaye_the_Dogged

      InstantOG wrote:

       

      Do I ruin the game if I play selfishly because my team is so bad that I can't count on them? Sometimes I feel these kids play with their brain behind a wall.

      Not at all.  You can look at it this way, the more selfishly you play, the more you're actually helping your team made up mostly by inexperienced randoms. 

       

      I was in a game like this.  The entire game progressed with us being down about 5-10 until I got my VSAT and then, vioila, we win in the end.  The randoms ended up pretty even KD wise, with a few guys from the other team kicking ass at around 20-5. 

       

      Sometimes when the team and I are not doing too well, there might be that one dude running around keeping the game close.  That selfish dude gives the team a fighting chance. 

  • Re: This game is being ruined by a selfish style of play
    theroc23

    I would agree with that as long as everyone else on the team just can't keep from getting killed regardless of how they play. Now getting back to the OP's original point...playing selfishly can definitely have a negative effect on a team consisting of players that do know how to back down and keep the enemy in front of them. Of course keeping the enemy in front becomes exponentially more difficult with the team spread from side to side at mid map while some cat is trying to flip the spawns behind them over and over. It just creates unnecessary chaos...and almost ALWAYS at the wrong time.

     

    We had a consistent 25-5 guy(TDM)playing with our party for awhile that had the singular mindset of flipping the spawn at every chance possible. He caught a lot of guff for it, but he truly could not comprehend how bad he was screwing up everyone's game. Everyone finally just agreed not to play with the guy anymore.  

     

    I should also add that the 25-5 guy inexplicably almost never hit ANY scorestreaks. It was absolutely unheard of for him to call in a UAV. Anytime I'd ask him about his' scorestreaks he would give me some BS about SWARM and K9. LOL